[sudo-discuss] [BAPS-Organizing] Re: [omni-discuss] Replacing the term "bottom-liner" with..?

Sun Jan 11 22:17:46 PST 2015

I'm not sure if I'm seeing subsequent emails following Niki's given access
or lack thereof to the other lists, so forgive any redundancy. I concur
with Niki that the question of naming is not nothing, in part because of
the ways that names, obviously, carry unconscious connotations that can
shape our approaches to the things they name. I don't really have a problem
with the term bottom-liner, as to me it hasn't implied an anti-collective
approach, but as I said, we're not just talking about the conscious things
a name brings up.

Concerns about the name, though, seem to be one manifestation of larger
concerns about the nature of event/program support at the Omni. I know on
the BAPS side of things there's been on-and-off problems with finding
enough people to bottom-line classes, and that often the duties of
bottom-lining have unevenly fallen on a few key people, so that even if the
name bottom-liner hasn't struck me as a problem, the organizing practice
has at times felt built on shaky ground. What in theory is a non-coercive,
equal, from-each-to-each kind of horizontalism becomes not so much that in
practice, with responsibility (and power) concentrating/burdening a small
number of folks. (Obviously, I know I don't have to explain this dynamic to
any of you.)

So I feel like lurking under concerns about the name are questions of
organization, of how to ensure a horizontalism not just in name but also in
reality, and so it seems like any discussion of renaming the bottom-liner
task is also going to have to take a real look at our practices as
collectives. Maybe I'm getting a little far afield here, but it seems like
pulling on the thread of what to call what we're calling a bottom-liner
pulls a lot of other issues with it.

MN

On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 6:09 PM, niki <niki.shelley at gmail.com> wrote:

> This is not relevant to this particular conversation, IMHO.  Not to
> mention that to even jokingly suggest "point-man" as a potential candidate
> exhibits a real insensitivity / obtuseness to some of the very issues that
> were raised in requesting an alternative to "bottom-liner" and exhibits
> behavior associated with systems that we, as a community, are working to
> confront and dismantle.
>
> I realize that for some people, language "doesn't matter" but, regardless
> of whether it's important to you or not to care about such things, I'd like
> to ask you to please be mindful of the fact that for some people, certain
> words choices represent oppressive systems.
>
> So perhaps, if I could make a gentle suggestion, take a moment to consider
> those that may be on this mailing list and in this community and who might
> not enjoy the same level of privilege that you do. Using certain language
> or dismissing the importance of caring about language can be construed as
> oppressive, insensitive and can be incredibly hurtful and alienating.
>
> Niki
>
> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 5:41 PM, Tony Barreca <tony.barreca at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Actually, if the opposing forces are reasonably well-trained, the point
>> man is usually not the first guy to get shot.
>>
>> A well-trained opponent will typically let him (or her, perhaps,
>> nowadays) get safely past so they have a much higher probability of killing
>> all who follow.
>>
>> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 5:26 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 11, 2015 1:49 PM, "Ryan" <yandoryn at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > A point person, on the other hand, is the person you have to go to in
>>> order to get involved at all. How do I get involved? *points at person*
>>>
>>> Actually,  I think "point man" presumably comes from military
>>> terminology: it's the soldier who is "on point" in a patrol,  and who gets
>>> to scout out the best route,  but who also gets shot at first if things go
>>> wrong.  Perhaps not the best imagery we want to adopt...
>>>
>>> Patrik
>>>
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Patrik D'haeseleer <patrikd at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:40 AM, Stephen Novotny <
>>> novotny.stephen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> To add to discussion: I believe one of the reason some of us began
>>> to discuss changing "bottom-liner" is because it promotes arresting a
>>> single person with all of the responsibility, rather than collectivizing
>>> responsibility toward building community.
>>> >>
>>> >> Meh - I think "point person" conveys exactly the same meaning to me.
>>> I had never heard of the term "bottom-liner" before, so to my ear this just
>>> seems like a pointless exercise in semantics.
>>> >>
>>> >> In the end, the mechanism is still that we appoint an individual to
>>> carry somewhat more responsibility for an event, because otherwise things
>>> will inevitably fall through the cracks. You can call them a bottom-liner,
>>> a facilitator, a coordinator, a point person or whatever you want. Does it
>>> suggest an unequal division of labor? Sure it does, but that just reflects
>>> reality. We can strive for a more equal distribution, but in my opinion
>>> just changing the name is not going to change the fact that some people put
>>> in more effort than others, or that in some cases it is actually more
>>> efficient for one person to take charge of certain details.
>>> >>
>>> >> What's in a name? that which we call a rose by any other name would
>>> smell as sweet...
>>> >>
>>> >> Patrik
>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Jan 11, 2015 10:38 AM, "lee worden" <wonder at riseup.net> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> "point person"?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 01/11/2015 10:27 AM, joseph liesner wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> overseer; host; ITGT (if  Then go To)
>>> >>>>> joe
>>> >>>>> On Jan 11, 2015, at 10:13 AM, niki wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Hey all,
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I want to honor the request from some Omni community members that
>>> we replace the word bottom-liner.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Can we collect a list of alternatives and mutually agree to
>>> attempt to replace this phrase / to lovingly and compassionately correct
>>> one another if and when we slip up?
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> As little as it may seem, this will require a cultural shift for
>>> a lot of us that I'm sure we're all willing to make, but it'll likely take
>>> a bit of time before it collectively takes root.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> It would be great if those who take particular issue with this
>>> phrase could put forth their suggestions.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> I will collect suggestions and make a poll both online and in the
>>> real world.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Here are some suggestions of mine:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> * steward
>>> >>>>>> * curator
>>> >>>>>> * representative
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Love,
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> N
>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>>> discuss mailing list
>>> >>>>>> discuss at lists.omnicommons.org
>>> >>>>>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/discuss
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> >>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> >>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>> discuss mailing list
>>> >>>> discuss at lists.omnicommons.org
>>> >>>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/discuss
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
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>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
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>>> >
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Tony Barreca
>> LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/tonybarreca
>> Skype: tonybarreca
>> Twitter: tbarreca
>> Mobile: (510) 710-5864
>>
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>>
>
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