[sudo-discuss] Proposed Safe Space Ban: Perry

Sun Feb 8 14:13:55 PST 2015

At some point email conversations, just as with in-person conversations,
can spiral into destructiveness with not much opportunity for anything
constructive to come out of it.

The overriding point here is mutual aid and love for and respect for one
another.

Korl is a wonderful human being who has done a great deal for omni - as has
ryan, jake etc.

Al is someone I at least have never met and does seem to be missing the
point that safe space was violated and compassion and conflict resolution
are the next steps. It's not a perfect process but Torrie's right, let's
not get so bogged down in process that we lose sight of the overall point
which is compassion towards Ryan who was accosted and how we can engage in
a process of transformative justice for all concerned so that this doesn't
happen again.

Let's also be a bit more forgiving of others' language that may not yet be
the most sensitive ways of discussing the issue, and educate them, giving
them the benefit if the doubt and assuming good faith until shown
otherwise.

Turning this into an thread of recriminations is not gonna solve the safe
space problem.

I do think Jake's point is germane, if Al has a history of trolling
elsewhere we as a community should know that. Al, if you are given to
criticism without functionally being present as an organizer at omni in
some capacity, please tone it down and show some sensitivity here. If you
are an organizer, please suggest a better way forward or improvements to
our policies so it is more clear, effective etc.

I think we need moderation on lists to cut down on these damaging
threads.. my 2c.

And Korl. We love love you!

On Sunday, February 8, 2015, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's really not cool to shut people down for speaking out against the
> continual barrage of complaining, mansplaining, boundary-transgressing,
> correcting and directing many of us experience daily from primarily - yes!
> surprise! cis men! [1]
>
> In particular, tone policing [2] someone in the very thread where they're
> bravely calling out someone who sexually assaulted them is fucked up! Wrong
> way y'all! I am so grateful to Ryan for calling out so much of the bullshit
> I often just let slide, suffering silently. We really need to be more
> compassionate, kind, and forgiving - but also strong in setting boundaries
> and reinforcing our values if we endeavor to create a safe space at the
> Omni.
>
> We still have a long way to go, and it's gonna be hard, and painful, and,
> and...
>
>
>       (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
>
> augh. I feel so exhausted, angry, and frustrated right now.
>
> I love you all, let's please do better and level up our empathy.
>
> <3
> Jenny
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender
> [2] http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_argument
>
> On 02/08/2015 12:00 PM, Soenke wrote:
> > Sorry for the typos. Migrane.
> > I wholly agree with Mary.
> > This entire thread has become entirely unconstructive.
> > Please, let's abandon ship?
> >
> > ~ Korl
> >
> > 510.671.0824
> > 500px.com/soenke-v
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 8, 2015, 11:56 AM, at 11:56 AM, Soenke <soenkeveirls at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > > This.
> > > What.
> > > Woah.
> > >
> > > Seriously, Ryan?
> > > Why do you think you're entitled to speak to people that way?
> > > Especially in within the Omni community?
> > > Why would you for second think that this a forum that would tolerate
> > > any form of prejudice or bigotry from it's members, when that is
> > > exactly why we are here... ?
> > > This just baffles me.
> > >
> > > ~ Korl
> > >
> > > 510.671.0824
> > > 500px.com/soenke-v
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 8, 2015, 11:50 AM, at 11:50 AM, Steve Bloom
> > > <stevebloom55 at gmail.com <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >> Ryan, why do you think I identify with or consider appropriate as
> > >> applied
> > >> to me the term "cis man"?  I don't.  Please don't direct it toward me
> > >> or
> > >> use it to refer to me again.  TIA.  Otherwise, my effort to be helpful
> > >> and
> > >> constructive having crashed and burned, I'm done with this discussion.
> > >>
> > >> -- Steve
> > >>
> > >> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 11:44 AM, Mary Ward <maryhbw at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> The point is that this conversation has become destructive. I do not
> > >> think
> > >>> pointing out people in the discuss list if helpful, only hurtful.
> > > The
> > >> CDC
> > >>> list may be a better place for in depth conversations about bans.
> > >>>
> > >>> Sincerely,
> > >>>
> > >>> Mary
> > >>> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>>
> > >>> On Feb 8, 2015, at 11:33 AM, Ryan <yandoryn at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> TBC I don't need a cis man telling me how I should proceed after I
> > >> was
> > >>> sexually assaulted.
> > >>>
> > >>> TBC I don't need a cis man euphemizing a sexual predator's behavior.
> > >>>
> > >>> TBC I don't need a cis man "researching" the situation to see if
> > >> there
> > >>> were more incidents.
> > >>>
> > >>> TBC I don't need a cis man adding to the tone policing in this
> > >> thread.
> > >>>
> > >>> TBC you are mansplaining right now Steve, and that's the last
> > > fucking
> > >>> thing I need right now.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 11:21 AM, Steve Bloom
> > > <stevebloom55 at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> TBC, yar, your statement necessarily had implications for what Al
> > >> said.
> > >>>> It could have been phrased to not do that even while still
> > >> expressing
> > >>>> support for Ryan.  Korl can think it was unconstructive without
> > >> taking it
> > >>>> personally.  I don't think the subsequent statement that Korl has
> > >> something
> > >>>> to learn here was helpful.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> That said, let's not lose track of the fact that Perry has serious
> > >>>> loss-of-boundary issues when he drinks (which seems to be
> > >> frequently).  My
> > >>>> own experience (two experiences actually) is that he doesn't single
> > >> people
> > >>>> out for that (I got it too), but it's absolutely the case that the
> > >> same
> > >>>> behavior that was non-threatening for me will be very threatening
> > >> for
> > >>>> others.  (Something I need to bear in mind going foward; probably I
> > >> should
> > >>>> have asked if there have been other such incidents.)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I'm a little murky on the process here.  I mean, this open
> > >> discussion
> > >>>> isn't going to be used for some sort of vote, right?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Assuming this from David K. is correct --
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Yes, any member (but not guest) is empowered to temporarily ban -
> > >>>> pending conflict mediation - anyone else so following a safe space
> > >>>> violation which is what this is."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -- then it seems that all Ryan has to do is say that Perry is
> > >> banned,
> > >>>> following which a conflict mediation process is initiated.  If Ryan
> > >> didn't
> > >>>> feel that his and (as related) Ribre's particular experience was
> > >> sufficient
> > >>>> and so was asking others, then what Jenny and I added (and David
> > > K.,
> > >>>> although he didn't provide details of the incidents) seems like
> > > more
> > >> than
> > >>>> enough.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Returning to Ryan's original comment --
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Regardless, I ask that Perry be banned from the Omni, pending
> > >> mediation,
> > >>>> as his actions clearly violate our safe space policy and he refused
> > >> to take
> > >>>> action to alter his behaviour."
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -- it seems to me that maybe it not being phrased as a statement
> > > may
> > >> have
> > >>>> engendered confusion.  So maybe just do that, Ryan?  TBC,
> > > apparently
> > >> you
> > >>>> don't need to ask anyone, and as noted if what you wanted was
> > >> corroboration
> > >>>> you have plenty.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As for the policy discussion, if Al or anyone wants to pursue that
> > > I
> > >>>> suggest they do it in a different thread.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks to all.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -- Steve
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 8:12 AM, yar <yardenack at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Sun, Feb 8, 2015 at 1:06 AM, Soenke <soenkeveirls at gmail.com
> <javascript:;>>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>>>>> Ok.
> > >>>>>> For the record...
> > >>>>>> If this is how you all are going to conduct ourselves, and treat
> > >> each
> > >>>>> other,
> > >>>>>> I don't really want to be a part of it anymore.
> > >>>>>> This is absurd.
> > >>>>>> I thought we were trying to be better people here.
> > >>>>>> But I suppose I was wrong.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Extremely sarcastically, I apologize for speaking up.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Have a good weekend everyone.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Hey Korl, with nothing but respect, I was just trying to express
> > >>>>> solidarity with Ryan without making it about you. To me this is
> > >> about
> > >>>>> having a safe space where people aren't assaulted or misgendered.
> > >>>>> There is nothing personal against you here. I hope you can learn
> > > to
> > >>>>> see that.
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> discuss mailing list
> > >>>>> discuss at lists.omnicommons.org <javascript:;>
> > >>>>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/discuss
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
> > >>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org <javascript:;>
> > >>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> discuss mailing list
> > >>> discuss at lists.omnicommons.org <javascript:;>
> > >>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/discuss
> > >>>
> > >>>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >
>
>
> --
>
> Jenny
> http://jennyryan.net
> http://sudomesh.org
> http://thevirtualcampfire.org
> http://technomadic.tumblr.com
>
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>
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