[sudo-discuss] [omni-discuss] Proposed Safe Space Ban: Perry

Sat Feb 7 23:33:34 PST 2015

Hey all, let's tone this down. A lot. 
Maybe certain aspects of this discussion should be held off thread? And mediated?
This is a public list. 
There's no need for abusive language, from anyone. For any reason.
And Ryan, it seems to me, the previous message mentioned "women" as an example, not as directly pointing at you.
Yes, there are flaws in how our "rules" are enforced. That being said, if anyone find complaint, they are more than welcome to bring the topic up in discussion at a meeting, with a proposal/ideas on how we can rectify any faults.

~ Korl

510.671.0824
500px.com/soenke-v

On Feb 7, 2015, 11:28 PM, at 11:28 PM, Ryan <yandoryn at gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm not a fucking woman, thank you, and when I'm sexually assaulted it
>should also be easy to ban someone.
>On Feb 7, 2015 11:07 PM, "Al Sweigart" <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > Sudo room follows the rules until it doesn't make sense to follow
>the
>> rules.
>>
>> Isn't that just the same thing as selectively enforcing the rules? If
>the
>> rules "don't make sense", it should be easy enough to get everyone to
>vote
>> to modify/delete/append the rules. Otherwise, this is just asking for
>> popular people in the group getting to decide when the rules don't
>apply to
>> them.
>>
>> It's easy enough to boot abusive people from Omni Commons when
>they're
>> drunk and getting into women's personal space and being a creep. But
>where
>> the policies of a space are tested is if they hold up against
>powerful
>> people. That goes for groups of people big and small.
>>
>> So, I kind of figured that mine would be an easy question to answer
>(Is it
>> 66% to ban or 100% to unban?) but if no one actually knows the
>answer, then
>> it points to something that should probably be discussed.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Torrie Fischer
><tdfischer at hackerbots.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Rah rah policy and whatnot.
>>>
>>> Sudo room follows the rules until it doesn't make sense to follow
>the
>>> rules.
>>>
>>> This thread (along with other previous threads) has seen a lot of
>energy
>>> put
>>> into dissecting the intricate hoops of policy and procedure that
>have been
>>> built to figure out loopholes and whatnot. They're quite ornate,
>really.
>>> Wonderful things, if thats your kink.
>>>
>>> Instead of investing more energy into this flavor of turing tarpit
>by
>>> throwing
>>> around voting percentages, decision approval workflows, ambiguous
>>> wording, and
>>> whatnot, maybe its best to start by revisiting the original problem:
>>>
>>> How does Sudo Room, as a member of the Omni
>collective-of-collectives,
>>> keep
>>> the people they want at Sudo Room and reliably push away people who
>don't
>>> belong?
>>>
>>> (For the record, I try to avoid the wednesday meetings because
>during my
>>> last
>>> few visits I almost fell asleep when it turned into omni delegate
>meeting
>>> discussion about how to lawyer it out in "consensus")
>>>
>>> On Friday, February 06, 2015 10:31:14 AM Al Sweigart wrote:
>>> > Okay. So if I'm reading this right, the CRP has a mediation
>process
>>> where
>>> > terminating a membership requires 2/3 vote. However, for safe
>space
>>> issues
>>> > someone can be temporarily banned immediately by an individual
>member,
>>> > which can then only be overturned by a 100% consensus (under the
>"All
>>> other
>>> > conflicts" category in the CRP)? Or when it says "a temporary ban
>may be
>>> > put in place until the Omni's conflict resolution process can be
>>> followed
>>> > to resolution" does that mean they are banned until a 2/3 vote to
>>> > permanently ban them is made (as it says in the CRP)?
>>> >
>>> > Basically, I want to know if, after the temp ban, it takes a 100%
>vote
>>> to
>>> > unban the abusive person or a 66% vote to ban the abusive person.
>The
>>> CRP
>>> > and Safer Space Policy aren't clear cut on that (unless I'm
>missing
>>> > something in the wording).
>>> >
>>> > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:12 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > > On Thursday, February 5, 2015, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >> I was hoping someone could clear a few things up:
>>> > >>
>>> > >> 1) Is Perry, right now, banned from the Omni Commons space?
>>> > >
>>> > > Yes, any member (but not guest) is empowered to temporarily ban
>-
>>> pending
>>> > > conflict mediation - anyone else so following a safe space
>violation
>>> which
>>> > > is what this is. I will bring it up also at the delegates
>meeting.
>>> See our
>>> > > Safe Space and Conflict Resolution policies on our wiki (on
>phone,
>>> don't
>>> > > have the links to hand but they are in the sidebar)
>>> > >
>>> > >> 2) If not, is any member unilaterally empowered to ban him
>right now?
>>> > >
>>> > > See above
>>> > >
>>> > >> 3) And if that happened, would he only be unbanned is through
>100%
>>> > >> consensus of the entire group?
>>> > >
>>> > > He would be unbanned following the process set forth in Conflict
>>> > > Resolution.
>>> > >
>>> > >> 4) And would this consensus be reached at a CDC meeting or
>another
>>> > >> meeting?
>>> > >
>>> > > See conflict resolution process. Thanks!
>>> > >
>>> > >> -Al
>>> > >>
>>> > >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Steve Bloom
><stevebloom55 at gmail.com>
>>> > >>
>>> > >> wrote:
>>> > >>> He's a guitar teacher of some sort, IIRC with a poster in the
>>> entry, so
>>> > >>> perhaps has some connection to musical activities at Omni. 
>I've
>>> > >>> experienced him too, both times somewhat drunk and having lost
>his
>>> sense
>>> > >>> of
>>> > >>> boundaries in part.  I didn't feel threatened, but I can see
>how
>>> most
>>> > >>> would.
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Ryan <yandoryn at gmail.com>
>wrote:
>>> > >>>> I like the phrase space-invaded because it just made me think
>of
>>> Space
>>> > >>>> Invaders which made me think of making a Safe Space top-down
>>> shooter
>>> > >>>> video
>>> > >>>> game, which made me smile.
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:27 PM, Jenny Ryan
><tunabananas at gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> wrote:
>>> > >>>>> Oh, *that* dude. So sorry you were space-invaded, Ryan :(
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> I remember being in the mezzanine when Perry was in the
>ballroom,
>>> > >>>>> reading Sarah's report about the incident with him peeking
>into
>>> the
>>> > >>>>> Disco
>>> > >>>>> Room, then overheard him say to someone on the phone about
>being
>>> asked
>>> > >>>>> to
>>> > >>>>> stop, "Dude, I was just looking at this beautiful naked
>dancer, I
>>> mean
>>> > >>>>> wow"
>>> > >>>>> and turning to Matt or Marc, can't recall, and fuming that
>I'd
>>> love to
>>> > >>>>> go
>>> > >>>>> kick that creep out of the space.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Wish I had then. Fully in support of his ban but don't
>personally
>>> have
>>> > >>>>> the bandwidth to steward a mediation process. I think he
>might
>>> know
>>> > >>>>> Gabby
>>> > >>>>> from Rise Above, or seemed to be helping / around that area
>some.
>>> > >>>>> CC'ing
>>> > >>>>> her to see if she has his contact info.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> /jnny
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> On 02/03/2015 02:49 PM, David Keenan wrote:
>>> > >>>>> > Hi all,
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > Yes, I agree, this person should persona non grata pending
>>> > >>>>> > mediation.
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > Perry is an olderish white guy musician who comes around
>>> sometimes,
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> much of
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > the time seriously drunk it would appear. Being drunk
>seems to
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> clearly
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > impair his judgement and his actions become invasive to
>others
>>> in
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> the ways
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > Ryan describes.
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > My history with him is only the following. I first talked
>to
>>> him a
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> while
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > ago asking him to turn down his electric guitar in the
>ballroom
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> while a
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > large meeting was taking place in La Commune - he
>complied. I
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> noticed he
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > really did reek of alcohol. I asked if he volunteered with
>any
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> collective,
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > he said FNB - but he didn't know where the kitchen was, or
>that
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> there was
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > even a basement, which rang alarm bells for me (ie, it was
>>> probably
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> a fib.)
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > I later followed up with Helen and Joe and they said they
>had
>>> never
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> heard
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > of him, and that sometimes people 'say' theyre in FNB but
>aren't
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> really..
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > Anyhow, Perry left the ballroom and wandered upstairs by
>the
>>> kitchen
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> above
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > La Commune, now playing the mandolin - 'quietly', yes -
>but alas
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> still
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > distracting to those in the large meeting below, and I
>again
>>> asked
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> if he
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > could play music in the basement or another room in the
>building
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> until the
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > meeting as finished - he complied, but seemed pretty out
>of it
>>> and
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> not
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > understanding why (drunk).
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > I later found out that while upstairs he was 'peeking'
>into the
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Disco Room
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > on a dance rehearsal that made those inside feel
>uncomfortable
>>> and
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Sarah
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > sent an email out to that effect. Next time I saw him, I
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> re-introduced
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > myself, took him up to the dance room and let him know
>that they
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> require
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > privacy and to not do that. He said he had something of
>one the
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> dancers
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > inside and was trying to return it to her.. I did not
>verify
>>> whether
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> this
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > was true or not, but since the dancers did not seem to
>know
>>> him, it
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> seems
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > doubtful.
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > Then, one day after that, he was walking into the building
>and I
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> admittedly
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > gave him a bit of a 'side-eye' on the way in because I
>wasn't
>>> sure
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> if he
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > was wasted or what. He himself came up to me and said,
>"why'd
>>> you
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> give me
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > that look?", and I said, it appears you come into the
>building
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> drunk, and
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > we can't have drunk people in here - you aren't known to
>our
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> community, and
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > I don't know what you will do in that state. I said if you
>want
>>> to
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> get
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > drunk, try not to come here. To his credit he admitted
>being
>>> drunk
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> the
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > aforementioned day, agreed it was unacceptable, and said
>that
>>> wasn't
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> going
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > to happen again.
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > But, since it has happened again, to my mind that is
>grounds to
>>> ban
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> him
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > pending mediation that he will have to arrange.
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > Does anyone know him, or have his email?
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > Best,
>>> > >>>>> > David
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Ryan <yandoryn at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > >>>>> > > fwding this to sudo and cdc as well
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> > >>>>> > > From: Ryan <yandoryn at gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>> > > Date: Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:59 PM
>>> > >>>>> > > Subject: Proposed Safe Space Ban: Perry
>>> > >>>>> > > To: "discuss at lists.omnicommons.org" <
>>> discuss at lists.omnicommons.org
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> >,
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > > David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > > Perry, who as far as I know is not affiliated with any
>>> collective
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> in the
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > space, was at the Omni until late last night. He was
>heavily
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> inebriated and
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > reeked of alcohol.
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > > In attempting to talk with me, he got incredibly
>touchy-feely
>>> and
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> further
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > invaded my space, getting so close that I could feel his
>>> breath on
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> my skin.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > I informed him loudly that touch needs to be consensual
>in the
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> space and
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > that he should ask me before touching me. I told him
>that the
>>> safe
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> space
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > policy is next to the front door and that he should read
>it. I
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> managed to
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > get away from him, but he followed me outside.
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > > Ribre (sp?) was outside with her guitar and he sat down
>next
>>> to
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> her,
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > invaded her space, and tried to strike up a seemingly
>very
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> uncomfortable
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > conversation. She told him that whatever he was talking
>about
>>> was
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> something
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > that he'd have to deal with on his own, not with her,
>and
>>> that she
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> cannot
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > deal with drunk men, and that they make her unsafe.
>Instead of
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> ceasing the
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > conversation, he got closer and tried to tell her that
>they
>>> needed
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> to
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > continue it.
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > > He continued in this vein for a while longer, until I
>loudly
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> informed him
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > that the conversation was not consensual and he needed
>to
>>> stop. He
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> started
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > to argue with me, however RAYC was able to defuse Perry
>and
>>> lead
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> him away
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > from the interaction.
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > > I spoke to Kwe and Juul before they left, to make sure I
>had
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> backup if I
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > needed to ask Perry to leave the building. Eventually, I
>was
>>> the
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> only
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > member left in the building, so I asked RAYC to shut
>down the
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> building for
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > me, and that I was only comfortable vouching for him and
>>> Nicholas.
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> RAYC got
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > Perry to leave.
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > > I spoke with David Keenan this morning, explaining the
>>> situation,
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> and DK
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > said that he has spoken to Perry in the past about his
>>> behaviour,
>>> > >>>>> > > specifically his behaviour when under the influence of
>>> alcohol. I
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> will let
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > DK speak more to that.
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > > Is anyone aware of a collective that Perry is involved
>with?
>>> In my
>>> > >>>>> > > conversation with DK, he said that when he spoke to
>Perry he
>>> said
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> he was
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > with FNB, but was probably lying, as he didn't even know
>>> where the
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> kitchen
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > was. Regardless, I ask that Perry be banned from the
>Omni,
>>> pending
>>> > >>>>> > > mediation, as his actions clearly violate our safe space
>>> policy
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> and he
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> > > refused to take action to alter his behaviour.
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > >
>>> > >>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>>> > >>>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> > >>>>> > > sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> > >>>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>> > >>>>> >
>>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > >>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> > >>>>> > sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> > >>>>> > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> --
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> Jenny
>>> > >>>>> http://jennyryan.net
>>> > >>>>> http://sudomesh.org
>>> > >>>>> http://thevirtualcampfire.org
>>> > >>>>> http://technomadic.tumblr.com
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>>> > >>>>> "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our
>stories."
>>> > >>>>> -Laurie Anderson
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error
>of
>>> defining
>>> > >>>>> it."
>>> > >>>>> -Hannah Arendt
>>> > >>>>>
>>> > >>>>> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
>>> > >>>>> -Stéphane Mallarmé
>>> > >>>>> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> > >>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> > >>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> > >>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>> > >>>>
>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>>> > >>>> discuss mailing list
>>> > >>>> discuss at lists.omnicommons.org
>>> > >>>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/discuss
>>> > >>>
>>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>>> > >>> cdc mailing list
>>> > >>> cdc at lists.omnicommons.org
>>> > >>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/cdc
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> discuss mailing list
>> discuss at lists.omnicommons.org
>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/discuss
>>
>>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>discuss mailing list
>discuss at lists.omnicommons.org
>https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/discuss
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