[sudo-discuss] [omni-discuss] Proposed Safe Space Ban: Perry

[Ryan]

I'm not a fucking woman, thank you, and when I'm sexually assaulted it
should also be easy to ban someone.
On Feb 7, 2015 11:07 PM, "Al Sweigart" <asweigart at gmail.com> wrote:

> > Sudo room follows the rules until it doesn't make sense to follow the
> rules.
>
> Isn't that just the same thing as selectively enforcing the rules? If the
> rules "don't make sense", it should be easy enough to get everyone to vote
> to modify/delete/append the rules. Otherwise, this is just asking for
> popular people in the group getting to decide when the rules don't apply to
> them.
>
> It's easy enough to boot abusive people from Omni Commons when they're
> drunk and getting into women's personal space and being a creep. But where
> the policies of a space are tested is if they hold up against powerful
> people. That goes for groups of people big and small.
>
> So, I kind of figured that mine would be an easy question to answer (Is it
> 66% to ban or 100% to unban?) but if no one actually knows the answer, then
> it points to something that should probably be discussed.
>
> On Fri, Feb 6, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Torrie Fischer <tdfischer at hackerbots.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Rah rah policy and whatnot.
>>
>> Sudo room follows the rules until it doesn't make sense to follow the
>> rules.
>>
>> This thread (along with other previous threads) has seen a lot of energy
>> put
>> into dissecting the intricate hoops of policy and procedure that have been
>> built to figure out loopholes and whatnot. They're quite ornate, really.
>> Wonderful things, if thats your kink.
>>
>> Instead of investing more energy into this flavor of turing tarpit by
>> throwing
>> around voting percentages, decision approval workflows, ambiguous
>> wording, and
>> whatnot, maybe its best to start by revisiting the original problem:
>>
>> How does Sudo Room, as a member of the Omni collective-of-collectives,
>> keep
>> the people they want at Sudo Room and reliably push away people who don't
>> belong?
>>
>> (For the record, I try to avoid the wednesday meetings because during my
>> last
>> few visits I almost fell asleep when it turned into omni delegate meeting
>> discussion about how to lawyer it out in "consensus")
>>
>> On Friday, February 06, 2015 10:31:14 AM Al Sweigart wrote:
>> > Okay. So if I'm reading this right, the CRP has a mediation process
>> where
>> > terminating a membership requires 2/3 vote. However, for safe space
>> issues
>> > someone can be temporarily banned immediately by an individual member,
>> > which can then only be overturned by a 100% consensus (under the "All
>> other
>> > conflicts" category in the CRP)? Or when it says "a temporary ban may be
>> > put in place until the Omni's conflict resolution process can be
>> followed
>> > to resolution" does that mean they are banned until a 2/3 vote to
>> > permanently ban them is made (as it says in the CRP)?
>> >
>> > Basically, I want to know if, after the temp ban, it takes a 100% vote
>> to
>> > unban the abusive person or a 66% vote to ban the abusive person. The
>> CRP
>> > and Safer Space Policy aren't clear cut on that (unless I'm missing
>> > something in the wording).
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 5, 2015 at 3:12 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > > On Thursday, February 5, 2015, Al Sweigart <asweigart at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >> I was hoping someone could clear a few things up:
>> > >>
>> > >> 1) Is Perry, right now, banned from the Omni Commons space?
>> > >
>> > > Yes, any member (but not guest) is empowered to temporarily ban -
>> pending
>> > > conflict mediation - anyone else so following a safe space violation
>> which
>> > > is what this is. I will bring it up also at the delegates meeting.
>> See our
>> > > Safe Space and Conflict Resolution policies on our wiki (on phone,
>> don't
>> > > have the links to hand but they are in the sidebar)
>> > >
>> > >> 2) If not, is any member unilaterally empowered to ban him right now?
>> > >
>> > > See above
>> > >
>> > >> 3) And if that happened, would he only be unbanned is through 100%
>> > >> consensus of the entire group?
>> > >
>> > > He would be unbanned following the process set forth in Conflict
>> > > Resolution.
>> > >
>> > >> 4) And would this consensus be reached at a CDC meeting or another
>> > >> meeting?
>> > >
>> > > See conflict resolution process. Thanks!
>> > >
>> > >> -Al
>> > >>
>> > >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 4:06 PM, Steve Bloom <stevebloom55 at gmail.com>
>> > >>
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >>> He's a guitar teacher of some sort, IIRC with a poster in the
>> entry, so
>> > >>> perhaps has some connection to musical activities at Omni.  I've
>> > >>> experienced him too, both times somewhat drunk and having lost his
>> sense
>> > >>> of
>> > >>> boundaries in part.  I didn't feel threatened, but I can see how
>> most
>> > >>> would.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:35 PM, Ryan <yandoryn at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >>>> I like the phrase space-invaded because it just made me think of
>> Space
>> > >>>> Invaders which made me think of making a Safe Space top-down
>> shooter
>> > >>>> video
>> > >>>> game, which made me smile.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 3:27 PM, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas at gmail.com>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> wrote:
>> > >>>>> Oh, *that* dude. So sorry you were space-invaded, Ryan :(
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> I remember being in the mezzanine when Perry was in the ballroom,
>> > >>>>> reading Sarah's report about the incident with him peeking into
>> the
>> > >>>>> Disco
>> > >>>>> Room, then overheard him say to someone on the phone about being
>> asked
>> > >>>>> to
>> > >>>>> stop, "Dude, I was just looking at this beautiful naked dancer, I
>> mean
>> > >>>>> wow"
>> > >>>>> and turning to Matt or Marc, can't recall, and fuming that I'd
>> love to
>> > >>>>> go
>> > >>>>> kick that creep out of the space.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Wish I had then. Fully in support of his ban but don't personally
>> have
>> > >>>>> the bandwidth to steward a mediation process. I think he might
>> know
>> > >>>>> Gabby
>> > >>>>> from Rise Above, or seemed to be helping / around that area some.
>> > >>>>> CC'ing
>> > >>>>> her to see if she has his contact info.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> /jnny
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> On 02/03/2015 02:49 PM, David Keenan wrote:
>> > >>>>> > Hi all,
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > Yes, I agree, this person should persona non grata pending
>> > >>>>> > mediation.
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > Perry is an olderish white guy musician who comes around
>> sometimes,
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> much of
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > the time seriously drunk it would appear. Being drunk seems to
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> clearly
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > impair his judgement and his actions become invasive to others
>> in
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> the ways
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > Ryan describes.
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > My history with him is only the following. I first talked to
>> him a
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> while
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > ago asking him to turn down his electric guitar in the ballroom
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> while a
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > large meeting was taking place in La Commune - he complied. I
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> noticed he
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > really did reek of alcohol. I asked if he volunteered with any
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> collective,
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > he said FNB - but he didn't know where the kitchen was, or that
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> there was
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > even a basement, which rang alarm bells for me (ie, it was
>> probably
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> a fib.)
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > I later followed up with Helen and Joe and they said they had
>> never
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> heard
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > of him, and that sometimes people 'say' theyre in FNB but aren't
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> really..
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > Anyhow, Perry left the ballroom and wandered upstairs by the
>> kitchen
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> above
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > La Commune, now playing the mandolin - 'quietly', yes - but alas
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> still
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > distracting to those in the large meeting below, and I again
>> asked
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> if he
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > could play music in the basement or another room in the building
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> until the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > meeting as finished - he complied, but seemed pretty out of it
>> and
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> not
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > understanding why (drunk).
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > I later found out that while upstairs he was 'peeking' into the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Disco Room
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > on a dance rehearsal that made those inside feel uncomfortable
>> and
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Sarah
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > sent an email out to that effect. Next time I saw him, I
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> re-introduced
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > myself, took him up to the dance room and let him know that they
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> require
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > privacy and to not do that. He said he had something of one the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> dancers
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > inside and was trying to return it to her.. I did not verify
>> whether
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> this
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > was true or not, but since the dancers did not seem to know
>> him, it
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> seems
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > doubtful.
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > Then, one day after that, he was walking into the building and I
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> admittedly
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > gave him a bit of a 'side-eye' on the way in because I wasn't
>> sure
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> if he
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > was wasted or what. He himself came up to me and said, "why'd
>> you
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> give me
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > that look?", and I said, it appears you come into the building
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> drunk, and
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > we can't have drunk people in here - you aren't known to our
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> community, and
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > I don't know what you will do in that state. I said if you want
>> to
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> get
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > drunk, try not to come here. To his credit he admitted being
>> drunk
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > aforementioned day, agreed it was unacceptable, and said that
>> wasn't
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> going
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > to happen again.
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > But, since it has happened again, to my mind that is grounds to
>> ban
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> him
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > pending mediation that he will have to arrange.
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > Does anyone know him, or have his email?
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > Best,
>> > >>>>> > David
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 2:20 PM, Ryan <yandoryn at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >>>>> > > fwding this to sudo and cdc as well
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> > >>>>> > > From: Ryan <yandoryn at gmail.com>
>> > >>>>> > > Date: Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:59 PM
>> > >>>>> > > Subject: Proposed Safe Space Ban: Perry
>> > >>>>> > > To: "discuss at lists.omnicommons.org" <
>> discuss at lists.omnicommons.org
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> >,
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > > David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > > Perry, who as far as I know is not affiliated with any
>> collective
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> in the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > space, was at the Omni until late last night. He was heavily
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> inebriated and
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > reeked of alcohol.
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > > In attempting to talk with me, he got incredibly touchy-feely
>> and
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> further
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > invaded my space, getting so close that I could feel his
>> breath on
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> my skin.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > I informed him loudly that touch needs to be consensual in the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> space and
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > that he should ask me before touching me. I told him that the
>> safe
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> space
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > policy is next to the front door and that he should read it. I
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> managed to
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > get away from him, but he followed me outside.
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > > Ribre (sp?) was outside with her guitar and he sat down next
>> to
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> her,
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > invaded her space, and tried to strike up a seemingly very
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> uncomfortable
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > conversation. She told him that whatever he was talking about
>> was
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> something
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > that he'd have to deal with on his own, not with her, and
>> that she
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> cannot
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > deal with drunk men, and that they make her unsafe. Instead of
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> ceasing the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > conversation, he got closer and tried to tell her that they
>> needed
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> to
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > continue it.
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > > He continued in this vein for a while longer, until I loudly
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> informed him
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > that the conversation was not consensual and he needed to
>> stop. He
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> started
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > to argue with me, however RAYC was able to defuse Perry and
>> lead
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> him away
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > from the interaction.
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > > I spoke to Kwe and Juul before they left, to make sure I had
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> backup if I
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > needed to ask Perry to leave the building. Eventually, I was
>> the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> only
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > member left in the building, so I asked RAYC to shut down the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> building for
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > me, and that I was only comfortable vouching for him and
>> Nicholas.
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> RAYC got
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > Perry to leave.
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > > I spoke with David Keenan this morning, explaining the
>> situation,
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> and DK
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > said that he has spoken to Perry in the past about his
>> behaviour,
>> > >>>>> > > specifically his behaviour when under the influence of
>> alcohol. I
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> will let
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > DK speak more to that.
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > > Is anyone aware of a collective that Perry is involved with?
>> In my
>> > >>>>> > > conversation with DK, he said that when he spoke to Perry he
>> said
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> he was
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > with FNB, but was probably lying, as he didn't even know
>> where the
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> kitchen
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > was. Regardless, I ask that Perry be banned from the Omni,
>> pending
>> > >>>>> > > mediation, as his actions clearly violate our safe space
>> policy
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> and he
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> > > refused to take action to alter his behaviour.
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > >
>> > >>>>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>> > > sudo-discuss mailing list
>> > >>>>> > > sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> > >>>>> > > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>> > >>>>> >
>> > >>>>> > _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>> > >>>>> > sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> > >>>>> > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> --
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Jenny
>> > >>>>> http://jennyryan.net
>> > >>>>> http://sudomesh.org
>> > >>>>> http://thevirtualcampfire.org
>> > >>>>> http://technomadic.tumblr.com
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>> > >>>>> "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
>> > >>>>> -Laurie Anderson
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of
>> defining
>> > >>>>> it."
>> > >>>>> -Hannah Arendt
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
>> > >>>>> -Stéphane Mallarmé
>> > >>>>> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> > >>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> > >>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>> discuss mailing list
>> > >>>> discuss at lists.omnicommons.org
>> > >>>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/discuss
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> cdc mailing list
>> > >>> cdc at lists.omnicommons.org
>> > >>> https://omnicommons.org/lists/listinfo/cdc
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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