[sudo-discuss] Gittip spinoff seeks advice on democratic governance & bylaws for web applications

Sun Jul 27 15:15:15 PDT 2014

Ok - so you're talking about people who are in fact invested in the
project, but are not invested in the idea of regularly helping manage the
project.

On Sunday, July 27, 2014, Rabbit <rabbitface at gmail.com> wrote:

> About this "not very invested" thing, I mean:
>
> -- In large democratic organizations, participation can be low even though
> decisions affect all the participants.  This happened in the Berkeley
> Student Coops, for example.  How can everyone be encouraged to participate
> and be informed when that takes time and effort and wading through lots of
> boring stuff?  And problems can happen when suddenly the other 90% of
> people show up to vote during a controversy but they're under-informed, but
> of course we want their voices too.
>
> -- If democratic participation requires a large investment of time (going
> to all the meetings, reading every email), this disadvantages people who
> don't have the privilege to spend all that time because of childcare, jobs,
> etc.  How can they become informed and listened to?  The Gittip spinoff is
> trying to focus on marginalized people and this issue has been mentioned a
> few times already.
>
> I expect that, like with a credit union, the vast majority of users of a
> website like Gittip will just expect it to be well-run by other people and
> won't put any effort into participating.  We want to make sure that there
> are obvious on-ramps to participation and that participation is possible
> for busy people.
>
> More practically, the question is what legal and governance structures
> meet these goals?  Who gets votes, how are they counted, etc.  Should
> people who are receiving more donations through the site get more votes
> because they might be depending on that income?  Can people create 50
> accounts to get more votes?
>
> I'm only slightly involved in this project; just signal boosting for them.
>  If you have ideas or resources or want to get involved, share them with
> the people on IRC at freenode.#atunit
>
> -Rabbit
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss at gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sonja.trauss at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>
>> Hi that's fine!
>>
>> What you're describing isn't what I would have thought "not very invested
>> in the project" describes.
>>
>> An example of what you're describing sounds like someone who is in fact
>> "invested" in the project - uses it, has ideas about it, is affected by
>> various possible configurations, HOWEVER, is dissuaded from giving input.
>>
>> Is that right rabbit?
>>
>> from my examples before you can tell I was thinking "not very invested"
>> meant that the person wasn't affected by decisions about configuration,
>> hadn't spent (invested) time on the project, doesn't have ideas about the
>> project (didn't invest time in thinking about it), and doesn't have any
>> financial investment in the project or its outcome.
>>
>> Now part of the reason I asked is that in some systems, say, a
>> neighborhood, you might have a class if users each of whom are only in the
>> geographical area for a short time - transients. I think you could say that
>> any one transient is "uninvested" in the neighborhood, however, a
>> neighborhood can be more or less comfortable for transients, so if one is
>> interested in protecting the interests of that class, she would have to get
>> information (and self advocacy) out of a population made of individuals
>> - each of whom does not consider herself "invested" in the particular
>> neighborhood. ("What do I care, I'm leaving soon.")
>>
>> I was wondering if there is some analogous group for something like
>> gittip or task rabbit, looking for a description of that dynamic.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> On Sunday, July 27, 2014, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','tunabananas at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for responding, Sonja, and sincere apologies for the targeted
>>> inquiry on my part for the sake of proving the point. That is, all forms of
>>> participation comprise the social dynamics of any given system.
>>> Understanding all of these forms of participation (or lack thereof) reveals
>>> inbalances, power structures, and opportunities to iterate on the current
>>> model.
>>>
>>> I think what Rabbit is speaking to boils down to the problem sudo room
>>> is tackling in its own offbeat experimental way, which is, how do we
>>> develop a culture that encourages especially the disempowered to feel they
>>> can be equal participants in and take ownership of the community? To not
>>> strive for individual profit and power over, but rather, to endeavor toward
>>> mutual aid and self-motivated responsibility? It is a very hard problem,
>>> because most of us have grown up embedded in a culture of hierarchy and
>>> oppression.
>>>
>>> We need to develop better models, and open source software communities
>>> are a fascinating grounds of experimentation and exploration in that
>>> regard. Really excited about this project. Thanks Rabbit!
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 4:16 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I participate in the part of the community called "the mailing list."
>>>>
>>>> I never comment on the threads about sudo room mechanics - I chat on
>>>> threads about general interest topics - porn, gentrification, now this
>>>> mysterious line in the gittip email.
>>>>
>>>> I don't think the analogy is sound. What rabbit was talking about was
>>>> "what if the users of task rabbit owned it," yes, sounds good.
>>>> Now I know there are lots of people who have signed up for task rabbit,
>>>> but never got around to using it. They have a log in, they forget what it
>>>> is. Those people sound "not very invested in the project." My question is,
>>>> why would you need their input? They never log onto your site. Or take a
>>>> less extreme case. Someone who uses the site, even regularly, but is "not
>>>> very invested in the project." This person doesn't actually care what
>>>> happens to the site, they has some other site they also uses, or they is
>>>> about to move away so they doesn't care... Why do you need this person's
>>>> input?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday, July 27, 2014, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I might ask the same of you, Sonja, wrt why sudo's mailing list would
>>>>> need input from people who don't really participate in our community?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 1:53 AM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Why would you need input from people who aren't very invested in the
>>>>>> project?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, July 25, 2014, Rabbit <rabbitface at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey all!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Recently there was a controversy at Gittip which resulted in a
>>>>>>> project to fork or rebuilding it with better governance structures and more
>>>>>>> focus on the needs and safety of marginalized users.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are figuring out how to run a web application in a cooperative
>>>>>>> democratic way that focuses on the needs of the users, as opposed to a
>>>>>>> TaskRabbit like model where a central corporation controls or extracts
>>>>>>> value from their users and makes unilateral decisions.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They're working on bylaws and legal structures for this, and would
>>>>>>> appreciate advice or connections to people with advice.  Talk to them in
>>>>>>> IRC at #atunit, particularly @adrienneleigh, or send me resources to pass
>>>>>>> along.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is an exciting frontier for the cooperative movement.  What if
>>>>>>> TaskRabbit was owned by the rabbits?  Websites have very concentrated power
>>>>>>> structures compared to the number of users; what are effective ways to get
>>>>>>> input from so many people who might not all be very invested in the
>>>>>>> project?  What other models can we draw from -- credit unions?  What
>>>>>>> lessons can be learned from Wikipedia?  Etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This especially matters for this particular use case, recurring
>>>>>>> donations, because some people will be making their living off of proceeds
>>>>>>> from the site and it's important that their voice is heard.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sudoroom may be one of the largest users of this site when it
>>>>>>> launches, like we are now with Gittip.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Rabbit
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
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>>
>
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