[sudo-discuss] Server Room Status

Andrew Lowe andrew at lostways.com
Mon Jul 7 18:17:01 PDT 2014 

Does this have to be so confrontational?

I'm invoking Cere's Rule:

1. Chill
2. Chill
3. Please talk about this in-person and give and receive
4. Hugs after you're done.

--Andrew


On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Matthew Senate <mattsenate at gmail.com> wrote:

> David,
>
> Great, looking forward to you setting up the network somewhere as well as
> building out that store room in some way or other.
>
> Can't wait to see the plans, approval, and funding for the store room.
> Maybe in the next 4-6 months?
>
> You may want to note what Daniel said about 4ft of clearance (or similar)
> around those electrical panels. I think this may be the page of
> regulations:
> https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=STANDARDS&p_id=9880
>
> Wow, that's going to be a lot of work.
>
> Good luck!
>
> // Matt
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 5:48 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Jeez..
>>
>> Matt, do you require all of the Backspace Wellness Collective to join
>> sudo-discuss email list to have this discussion collectively (and
>> therefore, productively), or inter-collectively as the case may be? We are
>> not all on Sudo's email list. Yes, I am on sudo's list, therefore I am
>> responding on behalf of many members of Backspace, because I, unlike You,
>> am in communication with all members of that collective whom are, unlike
>> You (or Sudo since You speak for all of us Sudoers?), most
>> likely negatively affected by this proposition. But this discussion really
>> should take place at the Omni meeting and/or on the omnilogistics list, or
>> at the very least, on backspace's list or at their meeting, since You are
>> talking about building something in Backspace, not the other way around...
>> if that makes sense?
>>
>> This area you are speaking of is not Backspace 'with plans' to use that
>> room - any more than Sudo has 'plans' to use its room: Sudo is already in
>> that room, and Backspace is are already in their area too (a small cluster
>> of rooms). The area is clearly marked on the floorplan as Backspace and
>> this use has been discussed numerous times in meetings for a long time, as
>> has its rehabilitation, because its in poor shape.
>>
>> Backspace is a small group with an enormous burden of tasks with respect
>> to rehabing that space and getting operations up and running. Sudo is a
>> comparatively large group with comparatively far less to do in
>> Sudo's own space to be functional. Backspace has a LOT to do with far less
>> resources, and I would ask that folks be kind to Backspace when demanding
>> things like build dates. Build dates are only a part of the timeline.
>>
>> What it (worryingly to me) feels like is that You are insinuating is that
>> this is not Backspace, it is rather Your space to do whatever You think is
>> best with it. The corollary to this is that Backspace's existence is
>> itself also merely a 'plan' - I assure you, it is not only that. That you
>> do not go to Backspace meetings, doesnt mean that it, or the people in it,
>> do not exist. Yes, it is new, like the cafe, but it is also been a part of
>> the omni project for a while with all of the real life effort that entails.
>>
>> Please lets all be kind to one another? We have only been in the building
>> one week. There is a lot of shared space in the Omni, and I think its fair
>> to say that a really compelling case has to be made if you need to build
>> something in someone else's space, rather than Sudo's own space or
>> in shared space.
>>
>> In addition, I would guess it would not be not clear to backspace that a
>> rack of servers anywhere in the building actually will necessarily benefit
>> them or anyone else that is not Sudo. Pretty much the only thing I can
>> think if controlling door access and building-related infrastructure like a
>> couple of switches, maybe an AP controller. Does that take a whole rack?
>> Everything is Sudo.
>>
>> What I would suggest is that several possibilities for a rack outside of
>> Sudo are explored and planned, and that the options are presented at the
>> Omnilogistics meeting so they can be discussed by everyone, not just
>> Sudoers. Does that seem fair?
>>
>>
>> On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <mattsenate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> So what you are saying is that You (on behalf of Backspace) have plans
>>> to add improvements to that room (at some point soon, requiring approval
>>> from the landlord and financed presumably by Backspace). Further, that You
>>> (on behalf of backspace with plans for using that room) do not want any
>>> network devices or other omni-wide usage in that space since you'll both be
>>> building in it and using it in some way for Backspace after you are done
>>> building in it.
>>>
>>> Is that correct?
>>>
>>> If so, what are the anticipated the build dates? And what stage are you
>>> at in terms of approvals? And what stage are you at in terms of financing?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Matt
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 4:29 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with you Matt 1000% on assuming good faith.
>>>>
>>>> I am super pleased that people take it upon themselves to tend to all
>>>> that needs doing - it was in the first line of my first two initial emails
>>>> on this project.
>>>>
>>>> Putting servers into backspace right now may seems like the easiest /
>>>> OSPF as a temporary, provisional measure for a couple of days.. I
>>>> wonder, will it be just as easy to remove them in a few days when we
>>>> begin laying up drywall in there and start refinishing that room, filling
>>>> it with debris?
>>>>
>>>> After the room is finished, if the servers are too loud for sudo/ccl 's
>>>> 3.2k sq ft room - how loud do you think it will sound in a room a
>>>> fraction the size with practitioners in it trying to treat folks with
>>>> ailments, or get a relaxing  tuia-na massage, or meditate, or quietly work
>>>> / read etc? A absolutely central idea of backspace is being a quiet space,
>>>> while 41U of servers sounds not unlike a jet engine in my experience.
>>>>
>>>> Y'all, I really do have sudo's best interests at heart, and I would
>>>> urge everyone reading this that expressing concerns like these is not any
>>>> attempt to stomp on our collective creative do-o-cratic urges, but simply
>>>> an good-hearted attempt, however adumbrated or limited it may be, to be
>>>> practical and thoughtful by incorporating germane variables into a viable
>>>> server room plan that might lie outside your current matrix.
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <mattsenate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Don't micro-manage creativity.
>>>>> Be pleased that folks want to solve communal (omni-wide) problems
>>>>> right now; this will not always be true.
>>>>> Assume good faith.
>>>>>
>>>>> This being said, arguments exist on all sides. To me the questions are:
>>>>>
>>>>> What are the problems? Need a place to put network utilities very soon.
>>>>> What are the constraints? Only certain kinds of places work for
>>>>> network devices, without intractable costs.
>>>>> What are the opportunities? Two branches (a) places that are
>>>>> convenient and already appropriate for setting up network devices (fast,
>>>>> easy) and (b) places that allow for integrating network devices into the
>>>>> heating/cooling systems (potential energy/cost-savings, require
>>>>> coordination, approval, and implementation with potential extra costs).
>>>>> What are the priorities? To me: speed, simplicity.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion, we should put devices in the simplest place as soon as
>>>>> possible and move on to the many other, more complex problems.
>>>>>
>>>>> // Matt
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:08 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> (Also I am thinking, low-power solar fans for mellow airflow into the
>>>>>> basement venting, like the kind had on boats, would be cool.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:06 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, re: ventilation in the basement - we have to recconnect the
>>>>>>> blower from the room (the 1'x3' venting) on the east side asap. On the west
>>>>>>> side, there is active cooling on the west side already (2x fans, plus
>>>>>>> windows above the sidewalk. There is also a large lightwell above the
>>>>>>> barr-room bathroom that could probably be easily gotten to. So, re: cool
>>>>>>> air (without a/c) to the servers if they are in the basement, we could pull
>>>>>>> cool air from the street or roof to the cold side of the rack, and vent
>>>>>>> heat from the hot side/top to the existing exhaust venting the furnaces
>>>>>>> use, or vent heat directlty to the basement in the winter, or vent perhaps
>>>>>>> to that lightwell... we can use thermostats in the room to trigger A/C from
>>>>>>> the compressor to the rack only if needed, and use ambient the rest of the
>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In general, the ventilation setup in the basement - what needs to
>>>>>>> exhaust separately, what venting is shared and whence does it come/go -
>>>>>>> needs to be coordinated with the FNB, La Commune, Black Hole, and OOC. It's
>>>>>>> a logistical issue that Sudoers I think would be really good at help
>>>>>>> sorting out, and I would really love it if we could.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As others have stated, we need a working group just for the basement
>>>>>>> and space there to hash out this stuff - plumbing is another equally
>>>>>>> pressing aspect. It's enough work and discussion I think it may be a good
>>>>>>> idea to set up its own email list perhaps on riseup or google, but I am
>>>>>>> open to suggestions about how best to comprise this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Love
>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Again I am *super* psyched that we are tackling where to rack
>>>>>>>> servers and very grateful to all who are putting energy and effort into
>>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Whether it be for servers or any other ideas about how to use
>>>>>>>> others' space and shared space, I feel the only real missing piece in the
>>>>>>>> discussion here, and actually to various degrees within pretty much
>>>>>>>> *every* member collective actually, is not keeping in mind any
>>>>>>>> other group's plans or ideas for a given space in the building - especially
>>>>>>>> for their very own space which they have already been promised are
>>>>>>>> technically in possession of.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *For sure*, by all means, lets brainstorm about every possible
>>>>>>>> place things like servers could go. If we are imagining the rack should
>>>>>>>> *not* go into sudo/ccl's room (why not?), but rather elsewhere in
>>>>>>>> the building, I think that's a conversation that should include others in
>>>>>>>> the building too, not just sudoers, because it affects others' planning and
>>>>>>>> use of space.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The same I feel is true for anyone else's plans to do any
>>>>>>>> build-out, and all buildout really should be discussed within the OOC as a
>>>>>>>> whole. This doesn't have to be a nightmare of endless meetings - its simply
>>>>>>>> a way to try to act in a coordinated and thoughtful manner in concert with
>>>>>>>> other groups in the space.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For example, in the hypothetical of Sudo putting a server rack into
>>>>>>>> what is presently another group's dedicated space (Backspace), that
>>>>>>>> particular conversation should be had with that *group* from the
>>>>>>>> get-go. For sure, hash out pros & cons on sudo-discuss, walk the building
>>>>>>>> with other sudoers - yes! - but that discussion should not take place
>>>>>>>> *only* on sudo-discuss (or sudo-mesh), or *only* with other
>>>>>>>> sudoers (me and Andrew). Also, the Backspace area presently needs a lot of
>>>>>>>> work - apparently, many people can only envision as a place for garbage, or
>>>>>>>> to get to utility panels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just because the Backspace area has not been fixed up yet, does not
>>>>>>>> mean it won't soon be. Backspace area is at a real disadvantage here
>>>>>>>> compared to nearly every other group, and I feel we all must be
>>>>>>>> understanding of this, as Backspace clearly needs more work (and
>>>>>>>> *time* to do that) than pretty much anywhere else in the building.
>>>>>>>> I mean, Backspace has far more intense permitting and structural issues to
>>>>>>>> address - we're getting architectural drawings (I had the architect over
>>>>>>>> yesterday partly for this reason), and planning it out thoughtfully - this
>>>>>>>> is not going to happen in one week or even one month. Also, Backspacers are
>>>>>>>> a much smaller, newer group than Sudo, in which almost everyone has day
>>>>>>>> jobs and simply can't be there alla the time - they are not on
>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss, nor necessarily should they be, at least any more than all of
>>>>>>>> sudo should be on backspace's list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For those that don't know - Backspace Wellness Collective is a
>>>>>>>> regularly-meeting group presently comprised of four healers / bodyworkers,
>>>>>>>> in addition to Andrew and myself: Samantha, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>>>>>>> So, the notion of building Sudo stuff into Backspace needs to be discussed
>>>>>>>> extensively with Backspace as a group. I see this model as applying to any
>>>>>>>> group wanting to build out in another group's space.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As you can imagine Backspace is having their own internal
>>>>>>>> discussions about how articulate their model, including how best to build
>>>>>>>> out, refinish, and make use of that physical area. Consider that if you
>>>>>>>> blow away part of Backspace's area or an entire room for a different use,
>>>>>>>> you are also potentially actually talking about removing an individual from
>>>>>>>> Backspace, who would have used that room for their practice. I think it
>>>>>>>> might be best to think about the pro's of putting servers into backspace in
>>>>>>>> that way: Do you really feel that strongly about having servers there that
>>>>>>>> you are willing to do ask that of another group? So you see what I mean
>>>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyhow, to a less intensive extent that conversation should also be
>>>>>>>> had with the Omni Oakland Commons as a whole (in the omnilogistics list),
>>>>>>>> especially if you see the servers as serving the entire building, not just
>>>>>>>> sudo (which would need to be explained to everyone else too - easily enough
>>>>>>>> done, but the common use of these servers should be clarified.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regarding server racks specifically and knowing sudo frankly I am
>>>>>>>> somewhat doubtful that racks would be simply be left alone in a
>>>>>>>> set-and-forget mode as much as has been inferred. Rather, I imagine sudo
>>>>>>>> will actually need not-infrequent physical access.. to hack on things,
>>>>>>>> install and upgrade new donated equipment, etc. Therefore they should be in
>>>>>>>> a space where physical access is not an issue, and probably for permitting
>>>>>>>> issues alone not infringe on the area for electrical panels. The electrical
>>>>>>>> panel area should be closeted off no matter what and really never entered
>>>>>>>> unless a breaker is flipped which, with 200A (or is it 240A?) of power and
>>>>>>>> solid distribution throughout the building, and thoughtful planning re:
>>>>>>>> circuit load, I see as being rare. Yes, a number of the circuits are
>>>>>>>> powered off presently throughout the space - we will address that, and then
>>>>>>>> the electrical closet should be rarely entered, if only for safety's sake
>>>>>>>> if nothing else. My 2c.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Luis Murillo <
>>>>>>>> luis.murillo.plos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hey guys sorry I've been MIA today, been running some errands/TCB
>>>>>>>>> will swing by sudo later tonight and monday night :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Somebody <somebody at riseup.net>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Excuse me for resending this email treat, but the Sudo-mesh list
>>>>>>>>>> was not
>>>>>>>>>> linked from the first email that I sent out.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>>>> Subject:        Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
>>>>>>>>>> Date:   Sun, 06 Jul 2014 17:12:03 -0700
>>>>>>>>>> From:   hol at gaskill.com
>>>>>>>>>> To:     David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> CC:     sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  >the compressor for that could also provide cooling for the
>>>>>>>>>> servers.
>>>>>>>>>> i think doing experiments on heat recovery and regenerative hx
>>>>>>>>>> are good
>>>>>>>>>> for longterm - using a compressor and refrigerant to cool hot
>>>>>>>>>> things may
>>>>>>>>>> be less green than using fans and just circulating fresh cool air
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> letting convection do the work.  if there's no objection, we
>>>>>>>>>> could set
>>>>>>>>>> up temp racks where daniel and others propose until we can run
>>>>>>>>>> coax to a
>>>>>>>>>> more optimal area.  i finally have some time this week so i'll be
>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>> to assist with low-level tasks in support of setting up basic
>>>>>>>>>> infrastructure
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-06 10:00, David Keenan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> > hey guys,
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > I applaud the effort to find a good, secure server space! I
>>>>>>>>>> definitely
>>>>>>>>>> > wanna help.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > The main issue with using this particular room is, as you can
>>>>>>>>>> see by
>>>>>>>>>> > looking at the floorplan, the Backspace wellness collective is
>>>>>>>>>> > already paying rent on that particular area (NW groundfloor
>>>>>>>>>> > corner) and will be making their own changes to that space.
>>>>>>>>>> Backspace
>>>>>>>>>> > is myself, Andrew of course, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > The wellness collective needs quiet - thats partly an
>>>>>>>>>> attraction for
>>>>>>>>>> > that corner of the building - and, a cabinet full of fans plus
>>>>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>>>>> > certainly AC for the cabinet, is loud. Also, it takes up
>>>>>>>>>> Backspace,
>>>>>>>>>> > and to be honest, i have hard time inamagining Sudo wont need
>>>>>>>>>> to get
>>>>>>>>>> > into it alla the time, so it seems nonideal to me.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > In general I would think, before using other essentially
>>>>>>>>>> non-shared
>>>>>>>>>> > areas of the building for Sudo's servers, we would have to
>>>>>>>>>> > actually rule out why building the room in other locations,
>>>>>>>>>> like Sudo
>>>>>>>>>> > room, wouldnt work, and why we think actually that particular
>>>>>>>>>> location
>>>>>>>>>> > in someone else's area is really the only place it could work.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Regardless of Bsckspace, having racked & stacked for going on
>>>>>>>>>> 20 years
>>>>>>>>>> > that would not be my first location in the entire building for
>>>>>>>>>> a lot
>>>>>>>>>> > of reasons.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Also, a server cabinet / closet does not need to be near the
>>>>>>>>>> main
>>>>>>>>>> > electrical panel. Nor does it does not need to be near the
>>>>>>>>>> street.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > We could find a room in the basement. There is excellent
>>>>>>>>>> ventilation
>>>>>>>>>> > to the basement, that just needs a small fix. Also the furnaces
>>>>>>>>>> are in
>>>>>>>>>> > the basement, and heat from the servers could tap into that
>>>>>>>>>> venting to
>>>>>>>>>> > actually help heat the building, which could save on energy.
>>>>>>>>>> Also,
>>>>>>>>>> > there is a plan to build a walk-in in the basement - the
>>>>>>>>>> compressor
>>>>>>>>>> > for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > In other words, in my view, we should attempt a green solution
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> > ties the serbers into the infrastructure for the building.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > :)
>>>>>>>>>> > d
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > On Saturday, July 5, 2014, Somebody <somebody at riseup.net>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > === SERVER ROOM UPDATES ===
>>>>>>>>>> > 2014/07/05:
>>>>>>>>>> > Today Luis, Matt, and I did the walk in the building, and so
>>>>>>>>>> far the
>>>>>>>>>> > only place that seems the
>>>>>>>>>> > most appropriate to have the server room is the room by the bar.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > This area is the most ideal in the whole building because the
>>>>>>>>>> air
>>>>>>>>>> > flow,
>>>>>>>>>> > temperature, electricity proximity, and also because it is
>>>>>>>>>> where the
>>>>>>>>>> > Internet access enters the building.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Since this area is not is not part of the SudoRoom space, we
>>>>>>>>>> will have
>>>>>>>>>> > to talk about it with the rest of the Sudo-Mesh group and the
>>>>>>>>>> group
>>>>>>>>>> > approves it, then we would have to present the idea at our
>>>>>>>>>> > Omni Collective meeting for approval.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > If approved by the Omni Collective, we would need to build:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > * A 2" or so high floor (two by fours and plywood would do, I
>>>>>>>>>> believe.
>>>>>>>>>> > * A 55" x 65" cage with chicken wire walls and a door.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > If this place is NOT approved by the OOC then perhaps we should
>>>>>>>>>> > consider
>>>>>>>>>> > building the Server Room in the SudoRoom Space. High
>>>>>>>>>> temperature and
>>>>>>>>>> > noise levels are the main issues.
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > If others have ideas/comments/or want to be part of this process
>>>>>>>>>> > please
>>>>>>>>>> > jump in. You may contact Matt, Luis, or myself (Daniel).
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>>>>>> > https://sudoroom.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Network/Reboot
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>>>>>> > https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Network/Reboot
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Thx!
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >     _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> >     sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> >     sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>>> >     https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> > sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> > sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:
>>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>>>>>> > https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> mesh at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>>>>> mesh at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>
>
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-- 
---------
Andrew Lowe
http://www.lostways.com
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