[sudo-discuss] privacy and violations; nym rights and other.

Jenny Ryan tunabananas at gmail.com
Thu Apr 11 14:57:50 PDT 2013 

Great discussion this has started. Anon195714, my apologies for getting
defensive and blaming you for not being aware.

The default Mailman messages are indeed unclear. I need to focus on prior
commitments today, but I encourage folks to suggest rewordings themselves:
http://lists.sudoroom.org. Same goes for scrubbing email addresses and
creating a robots.txt file. If anyone would like to volunteer to hack on
this, I volunteer as a point of contact for server access and
implementation.

Rabbit: the IRC channel is not logged and never has been, although we have
discussed a bot that would bookmark / record a point in the conversation
with another user's prompt.



Jenny
http://jennyryan.net
http://thepyre.org
http://thevirtualcampfire.org
http://technomadic.tumblr.com

`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
 "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
-Laurie Anderson

"Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining it."
 -Hannah Arendt

"To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
-Stéphane Mallarmé
~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`


On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Rabbit <rabbitface at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi everyone, I'm a new potential member (see you at the Python meetup
> tonight).
>
> I'd like to share an essay by Bruce Schneier:
> http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2010/04/privacy_and_con.html
>
> "To the older generation, privacy is about secrecy. And, as the
> Supreme Court said, once something is no longer secret, it's no longer
> private. But that's not how privacy works, and it's not how the
> younger generation thinks about it. Privacy is about control.  [...]
> Your loss of control over that information is the issue. We may not
> mind sharing our personal lives and thoughts, but we want to control
> how, where and with whom. A privacy failure is a control failure."
>
> With that in mind, here are my personal commandments for software that I
> write:
> -- If someone is ever surprised by the privacy outcome of a piece of
> software, the software needs to be made more clear.  Never blame the
> user for not understanding things
> -- Allow people to delete or take down their content
> -- The extent to which content is indexed / searchable matters.
> There's a practical difference between public-but-not-searchable and
> public-and-appears-on-Google.  Technically neither is secret, but
> that's not the only thing that matters.
> -- Things that people say in an ephemeral context, like small talk,
> should stay ephemeral.
>
> One way to move forward would be to have two lists -- a public
> archived-forever one and a private ephemeral one.
>
> (P.S. is the IRC channel logged too?)
>
> -Rabbit
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 2:09 PM, William Budington <bill at inputoutput.io>
> wrote:
> > On 04/11/2013 11:58 AM, aestetix wrote:
> >
> >> There's also the use case issue (I'm sure there's a more proper term).
> >> I'm totally ok with our list being transparent to people who want to
> >> learn and teach others. I'm a lot less ok with it going to a large
> >> company that will be using it to data-mine what products to target
> >> consumers with. If you take that a step further you'll find a
> >> quasi-analogy to Real Genius.
> >>
> >
> > Unfortunately, I don't think there is a clear separation between what
> > will be used to benefit others by being transparent and what will be
> > used to harm us personally.  We can talk theoretically about this issue,
> > but there is no practical situation where we can prevent someone with a
> > disproportionate amount of power from using our written words against
> > us.  Based on these words, an employer can hire or fire us, pressure us,
> > and political authorities can do whatever they want to us.  So our words
> > don't operate in a vacuum where we can control their lateral effects.
> > Words are not circuits, and have no control flow.  Or if they do, it is
> > by no straightforward mechanism that they travel.
> >
> > We can also develop policies and opt-out strategies (robots.txt for
> > example) to limit the archivability of our words, but this seems to me
> > an imperfect solution.  Primarily because it only limits the webcrawlers
> > that themselves opt-in to obeying these requests.
> >
> >> That said, this is part of a much larger "boundaries" discussion the
> >> internet is forcing the world to have right now.
> >>
> >> Anyhow, just my two cents, feel free to disregard at your pleasure :)
> >>
> >> Hail Eris,
> >> aestetix
> >>
> >> User-agent: googlebot
> >> Disallow: *
> >>
> >> On 4/11/13 11:27 AM, Anon195714 wrote:
> >>
> >>> Sorry but a little more "transparency and openness" about what was
> >>> going to happen to emails to that list, rather than using overtly
> >>> misleading language, would have prevented this kerfluffle in the
> >>> first place.
> >>
> >>> "Categorically object" all you like, but that boils down to an
> >>> assertion that you have some kind of right to make and spread
> >>> copies of someone else's words _against their will_, and infringe
> >>> their privacy _against their will_, which is truly authoritarian.
> >>
> >>> Aestetix, if you're reading this, your input would be highly
> >>> welcome.
> >>
> >>> Meanwhile I have work to do today.
> >>
> >>> -G.
> >>
> >>
> >>> =====
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 13-04-11-Thu 10:58 AM, rachel lyra hospodar wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> At the bottom of every email to this list is a link to
> >>>> 'listinfo' which opens with an archive of every post to the list.
> >>>> If the boilerplate seems unclear to people we can talk about
> >>>> changing it but I categorically object to removing anything from
> >>>> the archive.
> >>>>
> >>>> Transparency and openness are part of our core values, archiving
> >>>> emails is very standard, the listinfo page makes it clear that
> >>>> this is done using completely standard language, and if anyone
> >>>> wishes to have their statements go unattributed they are welcome
> >>>> to not enter them into the Internet, or to use a pseudonym.
> >>>>
> >>>> R.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Apr 11, 2013 10:53 AM, "Anon195714" <anon195714 at sbcglobal.net
> >>>> <mailto:anon195714 at sbcglobal.net>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Let's be really clear about this:
> >>>>
> >>>> This is the explicit language in the sign-up document:
> >>>>
> >>>> "Subscribing to sudo-discuss Subscribe to sudo-discuss by filling
> >>>> out the following form. You will be sent email requesting
> >>>> confirmation, to prevent others from gratuitously subscribing
> >>>> you. This is a private list, which means that the list of members
> >>>> is not available to non-members."
> >>>>
> >>>> "THIS IS A PRIVATE LIST, WHICH MEANS THAT THE LIST OF MEMBERS IS
> >>>> NOT AVAILABLE TO NON MEMBERS."
> >>>>
> >>>> That's a representation of a material fact.  And the link to the
> >>>> archive says NOTHING about that archive being anything that
> >>>> would violate or contradict the language I quoted above: no
> >>>> disclosure, no nothing.
> >>>>
> >>>> Blatant misrepresentation.
> >>>>
> >>>> "May need to be doing a better job" is the understatement of the
> >>>> year.
> >>>>
> >>>> The answer is, I'm going to hold SudoRoom to the terms &
> >>>> conditions I signed, and that material is going to be taken down
> >>>> immediately until such time as anything I've posted in it can be
> >>>> removed from any publicly searchable content.  This is not
> >>>> optional, any more than free repair under warranty is optional,
> >>>> or the absence of horsemeat in "100% beef frankfurters" is
> >>>> optional.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm holding SudoRoom to its stated language.
> >>>>
> >>>> -G.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ======
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 13-04-11-Thu 10:42 AM, Marina Kukso wrote:
> >>>>> hi george,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> i'm very sorry that you feel that you did not consent to
> >>>>> having this information public. this list has been publicly
> >>>>> archived since it began and i think that we've tried to make
> >>>>> that clear (although it seems that we may need to be doing a
> >>>>> better job!).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> unfortunately i'm not sure to what extent the "welcome to
> >>>>> sudo-discuss list" email that new list members receive
> >>>>> includes information about content being publicly archived
> >>>>> (could someone help with this?), but perhaps we may need to
> >>>>> make this more explicit in that letter.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> for additional background on why we made the decision to
> >>>>> publicly archive contents, the idea is not necessarily to
> >>>>> promote "transparency and openness" as a matter of principle
> >>>>> only, but because part of what we wanted to do with sudo room
> >>>>> is to make our history as easy for others to use as possible so
> >>>>> that others who are starting and running hackerspaces can learn
> >>>>> from our experience and discussion. in other words, to
> >>>>> facilitate ctrl-c/ctrl-v of hackerspaces around the world.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - marina
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Anon195714
> >>>>> <anon195714 at sbcglobal.net <mailto:anon195714 at sbcglobal.net>>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Right, and when you slip LSD into the fruit punch at a party
> >>>>> and don't tell anyone, do you justify that by saying you're
> >>>>> trying to encourage enlightenment?   Who needs informed consent
> >>>>> anyway, right?  Hey, who needs consent of any kind?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry yo, that don't go.  It's NON CONSENSUAL, like seducing
> >>>>> someone and failing to disclose to them that you have STDs.
> >>>>> It's a trust-break in a big way.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm asserting my right to put this on the meeting agenda for
> >>>>> next Wednesday, and pull in any record of anything I signed
> >>>>> that contained TOS.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Let me be really clear about this:  I'm as serious as a fucking
> >>>>> heart attack about this, and anyone who thinks it's a joke is
> >>>>> fucking sick.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This "open and transparent" stuff is starting to become a chant
> >>>>> fit for a cult, that short-circuits reason and critical
> >>>>> thinking.  In reality it's a house of one-way mirrors foisted
> >>>>> by the powerful on the masses to enable "prediction and
> >>>>> control" down to the level of the individual.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Enough was enough long ago, just like muggings and the rest of
> >>>>> it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -G.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> =====
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 13-04-11-Thu 10:07 AM, mattsenate at gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:mattsenate at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> We set the list up to be public in an effort to remain as
> >>>>>> transparent and open as possible. This is a blessing and a
> >>>>>> burden. We should be mindful of the scope of our language and
> >>>>>> interested in maintaining private conversation off the list.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Additionally, if you seek a lot of privacy, I don't recommend
> >>>>>> communicating over the internet if it can be helped.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> // Matt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ----- Reply message ----- From: "Tracy Jacobs"
> >>>>>> <kinetical at comcast.net> <mailto:kinetical at comcast.net> To:
> >>>>>> "Romy Ilano" <romy at snowyla.com> <mailto:romy at snowyla.com> Cc:
> >>>>>> "sudo-discuss" <sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
> >>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org> Subject:
> >>>>>> [sudo-discuss] Michael Orange - film events - Battle for
> >>>>>> Brooklyn - any sudo members interested in an intro? Date:
> >>>>>> Thu, Apr 11, 2013 9:54 AM
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Sudoers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why does our discussion list have to be published on the
> >>>>>> internet?  I don't personally want  it to be that public. Who
> >>>>>> decided it should be done that way, and is there another
> >>>>>> option?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tracy On Apr 10, 2013, at 12:32 PM, Romy Ilano
> >>>>>> <romy at snowyla.com <mailto:romy at snowyla.com>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hey  here is one of the film events that Michael Orange
> >>>>>>> from top 10 social is presenting.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> https://www.facebook.com/events/563556023675662/?notif_t=plan_user_invited
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >> Michael's also working with the Oakland Library as well,so
> >>>>>>> I'll mention the history wki people from sudoroom are
> >>>>>>> there!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> this probably isn't necessary for anyone here... but in
> >>>>>>> case one or two people gets the temptation:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -- Michael Orange is an all around good guy--please treat
> >>>>>>> him well, minimize over the top business plans, "industry
> >>>>>>> type behavior", and approach him as you would a family
> >>>>>>> member. If we talk to him the wrong way it will be a smear
> >>>>>>> on my reputation and his opinion matters a lot to me. =D
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
> >>>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
> >>>>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
> >>>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
> >>>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
> >>>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
> >>>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
> >>>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> _______________________________________________ sudo-discuss
> >>> mailing list sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >>> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> sudo-discuss mailing list
> >> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> >> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sudo-discuss mailing list
> > sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> > http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
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