[sudo-discuss] Dia de los Muertos fundraiser: is happening?

Sat Nov 1 11:24:21 PDT 2014

hep,

Please quit the rabid accusation of cultural appropriation.  It is ugly,
cuz the people of this community are basically "culture warriors", most of
whom I am sure are very keen to be respectful, who basically walk on
cultural eggshells in a concerted effort to be inclusive and
non-alienating.  And why?  THEY KNOW THAT CULTURAL EXCHANGE IS IMPORTANT.

You are not arguing with some pro sportsball attendees who saw a DDLM
Budweisser commercial and decided to wear facepaint.

People are not taking away what DDLM is to you, your fam, or your
ancestors, by having their own celebration.  Exactly what it means to you
may not be what it means to others, who, even by your own questionless
reckoning, have "the right" to partake of that culture.

You don't own culture.  Do you think DDLM should have copyright protection?
Were born into cultural royalty?  Somewhere in the past, your ancestors
took up some ideas and went with them.  Who knows, maybe they were forced
to by the state keepers of the day!

Accusations of cultural appropriation begs way too many questions of who
owns what, and by which rights.  It is silly.  It makes you talk about
culture the way capitalist's talk about everything for which they paid
money.

I choose which culture that *I* *don't want to appropriate,* and let the
rest of all the good the world has right on thru my door.  That is why I
don't wear business suits.  And all the guru's in India couldn't keep me
from practicing asana, and I bet very few of them want to.

Big Ass Commercial interests co-opt culture, not sudo room hackers.  When a
people choose to get with some new culture, it is because it has some
rewarding effect, some positive feedback, and that is why good culture
spreads.  Cultural appropriation is actually good (co-opting is bad). Isn't
that why we basically rely on culture in the struggle against statism and
capitalism?  Culture crosses borders.  That is what is does.

see ya'll at the ball,

<3

On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 4:40 PM, Hep Svadja <hepkitten at gmail.com> wrote:

> 1. All Hispanic cultures are not a monolith, as all mexican cultures
> aren't, and all Latino cultures are not. Whether Latino/Hispanic/Mexican
> people choose to celebrate holidays or not has nothing to do with the fact
> that white people co-opting those same holidays is cultural appropriation.
> This is a strawman argument.
>
> 2. Hispanic/Latino/Mexican people do not need you, a white person, to tell
> them how to be Latino/Hispanic/Mexican. Can we keep away from these kinds
> of "whites say this kind of Mexican is the only acceptable form" ideas?
> Because we are running perilously close to that.
>
> 3. Again, Hispanic/Latino/Mexican people are not a monolith. One person
> not minding you celebrating the holidays doesn't co-sign that as OK for the
> group anymore than one black person not caring if you use the N word makes
> it OK to use in any company.
>
> 4. Saying that white people celebrating DDLM on their own is cultural
> appropriation isn't speaking for the group, it is possible and acceptable
> for many people of the group to have many conflicting ideas. It is for the
> group to work out, not for white people to come in and tell people what to
> think and how to think it.
>
> 5. If you learned about these kinds of racist and white supremacist
> thought patterns in college I am confused as to why we are essentially
> doing Racism 101 on this list at this point? Is it because you want to make
> minorities do the heavy lifting for you? Can you not seek out answers to
> these questions (which have been exhaustively covered both in POC circles
> as manuals to white people, or by white people such as Tim Wise) on your
> own? Why are we at the point of wasting hours of my life as a hispanic
> educating you on basic racism and cultural appropriation at this point?
>
> -Hep
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> No break it down for me - hep announced she's Hispanic, then announced
>> there is something wrong with whites celebrating Hispanic holidays.
>>
>> I assume those statements are connected - are they not? I thought the 1st
>> one was designed to give some authority to the 2nd one.
>>
>> My other question is to clarify her statement, if whites can't celebrate
>> Hispanic holidays, is it also the case that Hispanics must celebrate
>> Hispanic holidays? The logic behind the prohibition on whites celebrating
>> Hispanic holidays (whites are appropriating-stealing-'taking away' the
>> holiday) implies also a positive mandate that Hispanics must celebrate the
>> holiday. How much more would Hispanics be alienated from DD if they stopped
>> celebrating it! Is this the case? I'm trying to understand the argument.
>>
>>
>> On Friday, October 24, 2014, max b <maxb.personal at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ok so maybe there's still a chance to keep this from turning into the
>>> proper train-wreck that I'm sensing.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you'd like to take a few minutes and re-think those questions
>>> and consider whether or not they're particularly thoughtful and whether
>>> you'd like to re-phrase them and/or retract them?
>>>
>>> I think people on the list would be more than willing to consider that
>>> they might have been sent in a moment of heat and that some small amount of
>>> cooling off would let us actually allow this thread to turn into something
>>> more productive....
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:53 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just didn't want to seem aggressive or like I'm trying to troll the
>>>> list or criticize you in public.
>>>>
>>>> But since you do - can you explain a thing I always wonder about when I
>>>> read authoritative statements about "My Culture" -
>>>> What should I make of Hispanics that don't agree with you - Hispanics
>>>> who do not care who celebrates their holidays, or Hispanics who don't feel
>>>> particularly connected to their holidays? Which one of you speaks for all
>>>> Hispanics?
>>>>
>>>> On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Bringing this back to the list because, as per usual I do not enjoy
>>>>> being contacted offlist and berated about my culture, or berated about
>>>>> white people's entitlement to my culture.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> -hep
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 5:32 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm from the east coast, Philadelphia. Philadelphia is 45,45,10
>>>>>> black, white, Hispanic (mostly Puerto Rican) + Asian (Cambodian,
>>>>>> Vietnamese, Filipino, Korean and Chinese). As you can maybe imagine, day of
>>>>>> the dead is really not a thing in Philadlephia. When I lived there, I never
>>>>>> went to a DD party, or even really had heard of it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here, in the bay, the racial/ethnic distribution is way different. I
>>>>>> never meet Puerto Ricans any more, and there are way fewer blacks. There
>>>>>> are more Asians and Hispanics. Not only is the current Hispanic population
>>>>>> here bigger, this area was settled by Spanish soldiers (unlike
>>>>>> Philadelphia, settled by Dutch and English mostly. Also some Germans). The
>>>>>> Spanish settler influence is all over - in names, in the types of old
>>>>>> buildings. The white people I meet here are Way more likely to speak
>>>>>> Spanish than the people I grew up with. the white people I meet here know
>>>>>> more about Mexico and Central America than the ppl back east. The point is,
>>>>>> California is a way more Hispanic part of the US overall than anywhere I
>>>>>> lived before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Therefore, it is not surprising at all to see way more DD. Moreover,
>>>>>> it doesn't seem strange to me that people who live near each other
>>>>>> would celebrate the same holidays. The thing that makes many Hispanics
>>>>>> celebrate day of the dead (seeing Hispanics celebrate day of the dead) also
>>>>>> makes white people celebrate day of the dead.
>>>>>> Put another way, is it weird to you how many atheists
>>>>>> and non-Christians in America celebrate Christmas? Probably not - you can
>>>>>> see that at on December 25th, Christmas is just the thing to do.
>>>>>> When you see white people celebrating DD here, it's not because they
>>>>>> want to steal your holiday, it's because your culture is pervasive here.
>>>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Friday, October 24, 2014, Hep Svadja <hepkitten at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hi guys:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> a little bothered by the cultural appropriation of this event. as a
>>>>>>> Bay Area Hispanic I find it quite strange when groups of mostly white
>>>>>>> people with no ties to the actual culture of ddlm host events not in the
>>>>>>> actual spirit of this extremely reverent Hispanic holiday. basically if you
>>>>>>> don't build an ofrenda on your ancestors' graves every year i find it
>>>>>>> really problematic to be jumping aboard this holiday as you are clearly not
>>>>>>> of this culture. using it as an excuse for a dance party is even more
>>>>>>> questionable as is encouraging people with no understanding of this
>>>>>>> cultural holiday to dress up, which i understand is for the best of reasons
>>>>>>> but also pretty exploitative of a culture you don't belong to.  what is
>>>>>>> wrong with just making this a Halloween party and not contributing to the
>>>>>>> ongoing exploitation of local Hispanic communities of color?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -hep
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * edited this to be less of a jerk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 1:54 PM, yar <yardenack at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Lesley Bell <zvezdalune at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > Hello!
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > The Omni needs funds.  Dia de los Muertos is a thing. We would
>>>>>>>> like to
>>>>>>>> > introduce new people to the space and expand our community.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > I have attached a flyer for a possible event, a funky
>>>>>>>> transhumanist/Dia de
>>>>>>>> > los Muertos themed costume ball.  Should this happen? Is there a
>>>>>>>> reason
>>>>>>>> > anyone would like to block?
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > Also, steampunk zombies! Mechanical corpses! Post-singularity
>>>>>>>> glittery
>>>>>>>> > things covered in LEDs! Ordinary awesome humans!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Looks fun! Right now the way to book events is:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1) check the calendar for conflicts:
>>>>>>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/Calendar
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2) submit this form: bit.ly/omniballroom
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Full explanation and future changes to the process will go here:
>>>>>>>> https://omnicommons.org/wiki/How_to_book_events
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
>>>>>>> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>     HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
>>>>> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>
>
> --
>
>     HEPIC PHOTOGRAPHY
> 415 867 9472 || http://hepic.net
>
> _______________________________________________
> sudo-discuss mailing list
> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://sudoroom.org/pipermail/sudo-discuss/attachments/20141101/9be2e30f/attachment.html>