[sudo-discuss] Gittip spinoff seeks advice on democratic governance & bylaws for web applications

Tue Jul 29 14:43:36 PDT 2014

I'm not sure how I stumbled on this page, but it makes it clear why it
matters:
http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Gittip_crisis

On Tue, Jul 29, 2014 at 8:30 AM, Jehan Tremback <jehan.tremback at gmail.com>
wrote:

> How much governance does a site like this really need? Just keep the
> servers up and the paperwork current, right?
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 9:25 PM, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Really good points - and from what I gather of this alt-gittip project,
>> they're looking at a structure that involves a few dedicated folks
>> spearheading the day-to-day management of the system, but wanting to make
>> it as democratic as possible. Let's keep in mind that this is not a
>> volunteer-for-fun sort of project, but actually an income ecosystem. As
>> such, users of the system would best be served by having the option to have
>> a voice in how decisions that would influence their livelihoods are made.
>> Transparent documentation of decisions made and challenges articulated is
>> important in this regard. Seems like they're hard at work on that :)
>>
>> Jenny
>> http://jennyryan.net
>> http://thepyre.org
>> http://thevirtualcampfire.org
>> http://technomadic.tumblr.com
>>
>> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>>  "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
>> -Laurie Anderson
>>
>> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining
>> it."
>>  -Hannah Arendt
>>
>> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
>> -Stéphane Mallarmé
>> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I do think there are people who want to participate but can't, but a
>>> couple of years ago I realized some people really just don't want to
>>> participate in management. They don't think it's fun or worthwhile, the way
>>> I really don't want to play video games ... Or I really don't want to cook
>>>
>>> When I lived in Philadelphia I ran a medium sized brigade for our New
>>> Year's Day parade. This is a big once a year project - it involves
>>> fundraising, and making a float and about 45 costumes. I assumed everyone
>>> who participated was going to be like me, I assumed they would all have
>>> strong opinions about their costumes and the theme and the dance and want
>>> to have a lot of control and say in the process, so I made the process
>>> really open and mainly saw myself as someone who made sure logistics were
>>> taken care of so everybody could be free to express themselves. I was right
>>> for a lot of people - we definitely have people with strong opinions who
>>> made their own decisions.
>>>
>>> I was super surprised, however, to discover there were also people who
>>> did not want to decide on their costume. They wanted me to assign them a
>>> costume. They wanted to help, but they wanted me to decide what job they
>>> should be doing. They didn't want to hear all of the options, they wanted
>>> to come to the space after work, and have me just give them a task, without
>>> tiring out their brains with an explanation of the mechanics of the rest of
>>> the project. They felt aggravated and stressed by the extra information and
>>> required decision making. My friend Ben said, "not everybody's LIKE you,
>>> stop being a chauvinist."
>>>
>>> My mind was blown and I felt like a jerk, lol. but once I knew that I
>>> stopped boring those people with extra stress and just gave them
>>> assignments.
>>>
>>> So, the point is, I look out for people who want to participate but
>>> arent sure they should, but I also have to trust people sometimes when they
>>> say, "I'm sure whatever you decide is fine." Some people really just think
>>> politics is boring and don't want to do it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, July 28, 2014, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Knowing _why_ people weren't invested in the project would be the
>>>> natural first step, I think. Whether it were personal life circumstances
>>>> or, say, being completely ignored upon first speaking up in the community
>>>> on controversial grounds.
>>>>
>>>> Jenny
>>>> http://jennyryan.net
>>>> http://thepyre.org
>>>> http://thevirtualcampfire.org
>>>> http://technomadic.tumblr.com
>>>>
>>>> `~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>>>>  "Technology is the campfire around which we tell our stories."
>>>> -Laurie Anderson
>>>>
>>>> "Storytelling reveals meaning without committing the error of defining
>>>> it."
>>>>  -Hannah Arendt
>>>>
>>>> "To define is to kill. To suggest is to create."
>>>> -Stéphane Mallarmé
>>>> ~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`~`
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 3:15 PM, Sonja Trauss <sonja.trauss at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ok - so you're talking about people who are in fact invested in the
>>>>> project, but are not invested in the idea of regularly helping manage the
>>>>> project.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sunday, July 27, 2014, Rabbit <rabbitface at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> About this "not very invested" thing, I mean:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- In large democratic organizations, participation can be low even
>>>>>> though decisions affect all the participants.  This happened in the
>>>>>> Berkeley Student Coops, for example.  How can everyone be encouraged to
>>>>>> participate and be informed when that takes time and effort and wading
>>>>>> through lots of boring stuff?  And problems can happen when suddenly the
>>>>>> other 90% of people show up to vote during a controversy but they're
>>>>>> under-informed, but of course we want their voices too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- If democratic participation requires a large investment of time
>>>>>> (going to all the meetings, reading every email), this disadvantages people
>>>>>> who don't have the privilege to spend all that time because of childcare,
>>>>>> jobs, etc.  How can they become informed and listened to?  The Gittip
>>>>>> spinoff is trying to focus on marginalized people and this issue has been
>>>>>> mentioned a few times already.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I expect that, like with a credit union, the vast majority of users
>>>>>> of a website like Gittip will just expect it to be well-run by other people
>>>>>> and won't put any effort into participating.  We want to make sure that
>>>>>> there are obvious on-ramps to participation and that participation is
>>>>>> possible for busy people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> More practically, the question is what legal and governance
>>>>>> structures meet these goals?  Who gets votes, how are they counted, etc.
>>>>>>  Should people who are receiving more donations through the site get more
>>>>>> votes because they might be depending on that income?  Can people create 50
>>>>>> accounts to get more votes?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm only slightly involved in this project; just signal boosting for
>>>>>> them.  If you have ideas or resources or want to get involved, share them
>>>>>> with the people on IRC at freenode.#atunit
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Rabbit
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Sonja Trauss <
>>>>>> sonja.trauss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi that's fine!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What you're describing isn't what I would have thought "not very
>>>>>>> invested in the project" describes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An example of what you're describing sounds like someone who is in
>>>>>>> fact "invested" in the project - uses it, has ideas about it, is affected
>>>>>>> by various possible configurations, HOWEVER, is dissuaded from giving
>>>>>>> input.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Is that right rabbit?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> from my examples before you can tell I was thinking "not very
>>>>>>> invested" meant that the person wasn't affected by decisions about
>>>>>>> configuration, hadn't spent (invested) time on the project, doesn't have
>>>>>>> ideas about the project (didn't invest time in thinking about it), and
>>>>>>> doesn't have any financial investment in the project or its outcome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now part of the reason I asked is that in some systems, say, a
>>>>>>> neighborhood, you might have a class if users each of whom are only in the
>>>>>>> geographical area for a short time - transients. I think you could say that
>>>>>>> any one transient is "uninvested" in the neighborhood, however, a
>>>>>>> neighborhood can be more or less comfortable for transients, so if one is
>>>>>>> interested in protecting the interests of that class, she would have to get
>>>>>>> information (and self advocacy) out of a population made of individuals
>>>>>>> - each of whom does not consider herself "invested" in the particular
>>>>>>> neighborhood. ("What do I care, I'm leaving soon.")
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was wondering if there is some analogous group for something like
>>>>>>> gittip or task rabbit, looking for a description of that dynamic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sunday, July 27, 2014, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for responding, Sonja, and sincere apologies for the
>>>>>>>> targeted inquiry on my part for the sake of proving the point. That is, all
>>>>>>>> forms of participation comprise the social dynamics of any given system.
>>>>>>>> Understanding all of these forms of participation (or lack thereof) reveals
>>>>>>>> inbalances, power structures, and opportunities to iterate on the current
>>>>>>>> model.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think what Rabbit is speaking to boils down to the problem sudo
>>>>>>>> room is tackling in its own offbeat experimental way, which is, how do we
>>>>>>>> develop a culture that encourages especially the disempowered to feel they
>>>>>>>> can be equal participants in and take ownership of the community? To not
>>>>>>>> strive for individual profit and power over, but rather, to endeavor toward
>>>>>>>> mutual aid and self-motivated responsibility? It is a very hard problem,
>>>>>>>> because most of us have grown up embedded in a culture of hierarchy and
>>>>>>>> oppression.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We need to develop better models, and open source software
>>>>>>>> communities are a fascinating grounds of experimentation and exploration in
>>>>>>>> that regard. Really excited about this project. Thanks Rabbit!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 4:16 AM, Sonja Trauss <
>>>>>>>> sonja.trauss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I participate in the part of the community called "the mailing
>>>>>>>>> list."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I never comment on the threads about sudo room mechanics - I chat
>>>>>>>>> on threads about general interest topics - porn, gentrification, now this
>>>>>>>>> mysterious line in the gittip email.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't think the analogy is sound. What rabbit was talking about
>>>>>>>>> was "what if the users of task rabbit owned it," yes, sounds good.
>>>>>>>>> Now I know there are lots of people who have signed up for task
>>>>>>>>> rabbit, but never got around to using it. They have a log in, they forget
>>>>>>>>> what it is. Those people sound "not very invested in the project." My
>>>>>>>>> question is, why would you need their input? They never log onto your site.
>>>>>>>>> Or take a less extreme case. Someone who uses the site, even regularly, but
>>>>>>>>> is "not very invested in the project." This person doesn't actually care
>>>>>>>>> what happens to the site, they has some other site they also
>>>>>>>>> uses, or they is about to move away so they doesn't care... Why do you need
>>>>>>>>> this person's input?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, July 27, 2014, Jenny Ryan <tunabananas at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I might ask the same of you, Sonja, wrt why sudo's mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> would need input from people who don't really participate in our community?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  On Sun, Jul 27, 2014 at 1:53 AM, Sonja Trauss <
>>>>>>>>>> sonja.trauss at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Why would you need input from people who aren't very invested
>>>>>>>>>>> in the project?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Friday, July 25, 2014, Rabbit <rabbitface at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey all!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recently there was a controversy at Gittip which resulted in a
>>>>>>>>>>>> project to fork or rebuilding it with better governance structures and more
>>>>>>>>>>>> focus on the needs and safety of marginalized users.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They are figuring out how to run a web application in a
>>>>>>>>>>>> cooperative democratic way that focuses on the needs of the users, as
>>>>>>>>>>>> opposed to a TaskRabbit like model where a central corporation controls or
>>>>>>>>>>>> extracts value from their users and makes unilateral decisions.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They're working on bylaws and legal structures for this, and
>>>>>>>>>>>> would appreciate advice or connections to people with advice.  Talk to them
>>>>>>>>>>>> in IRC at #atunit, particularly @adrienneleigh, or send me resources to
>>>>>>>>>>>> pass along.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This is an exciting frontier for the cooperative movement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>  What if TaskRabbit was owned by the rabbits?  Websites have very
>>>>>>>>>>>> concentrated power structures compared to the number of users; what are
>>>>>>>>>>>> effective ways to get input from so many people who might not all be very
>>>>>>>>>>>> invested in the project?  What other models can we draw from -- credit
>>>>>>>>>>>> unions?  What lessons can be learned from Wikipedia?  Etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This especially matters for this particular use case, recurring
>>>>>>>>>>>> donations, because some people will be making their living off of proceeds
>>>>>>>>>>>> from the site and it's important that their voice is heard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sudoroom may be one of the largest users of this site when it
>>>>>>>>>>>> launches, like we are now with Gittip.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> -Rabbit
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
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>
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