[sudo-discuss] sudo-discuss Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6
Jessica Ching
jessicakarma at gmail.com
Mon Jul 7 16:55:26 PDT 2014
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: [Mesh] Fwd: Re: Server Room Status (David Keenan)
> 2. Re: [Mesh] Fwd: Re: Server Room Status (Matthew Senate)
> 3. Re: Server Room Status (David Keenan)
> 4. Re: Server Room Status (Matthew Senate)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 15:08:12 -0700
> From: David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
> To: "sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org"
> <sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] [Mesh] Fwd: Re: Server Room Status
> Message-ID:
> <CABhLtjwKsaqN3g33shL1Egn-0kmaT_5c4=ZkrSPn=Hp+0axSqQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> (Also I am thinking, low-power solar fans for mellow airflow into the
> basement venting, like the kind had on boats, would be cool.)
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:06 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Also, re: ventilation in the basement - we have to recconnect the blower
>> from the room (the 1'x3' venting) on the east side asap. On the west side,
>> there is active cooling on the west side already (2x fans, plus windows
>> above the sidewalk. There is also a large lightwell above the barr-room
>> bathroom that could probably be easily gotten to. So, re: cool air (without
>> a/c) to the servers if they are in the basement, we could pull cool air
>> from the street or roof to the cold side of the rack, and vent heat from
>> the hot side/top to the existing exhaust venting the furnaces use, or vent
>> heat directlty to the basement in the winter, or vent perhaps to that
>> lightwell... we can use thermostats in the room to trigger A/C from the
>> compressor to the rack only if needed, and use ambient the rest of the time.
>>
>> In general, the ventilation setup in the basement - what needs to exhaust
>> separately, what venting is shared and whence does it come/go - needs to be
>> coordinated with the FNB, La Commune, Black Hole, and OOC. It's a
>> logistical issue that Sudoers I think would be really good at help sorting
>> out, and I would really love it if we could.
>>
>> As others have stated, we need a working group just for the basement and
>> space there to hash out this stuff - plumbing is another equally pressing
>> aspect. It's enough work and discussion I think it may be a good idea to
>> set up its own email list perhaps on riseup or google, but I am open to
>> suggestions about how best to comprise this.
>>
>> Love
>> David
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Again I am *super* psyched that we are tackling where to rack servers
>>> and very grateful to all who are putting energy and effort into this.
>>>
>>> Whether it be for servers or any other ideas about how to use others'
>>> space and shared space, I feel the only real missing piece in the
>>> discussion here, and actually to various degrees within pretty much
>>> *every* member collective actually, is not keeping in mind any other
>>> group's plans or ideas for a given space in the building - especially for
>>> their very own space which they have already been promised are technically
>>> in possession of.
>>>
>>> *For sure*, by all means, lets brainstorm about every possible place
>>> things like servers could go. If we are imagining the rack should *not*
>>> go into sudo/ccl's room (why not?), but rather elsewhere in the building, I
>>> think that's a conversation that should include others in the building too,
>>> not just sudoers, because it affects others' planning and use of space.
>>>
>>> The same I feel is true for anyone else's plans to do any build-out, and
>>> all buildout really should be discussed within the OOC as a whole. This
>>> doesn't have to be a nightmare of endless meetings - its simply a way to
>>> try to act in a coordinated and thoughtful manner in concert with other
>>> groups in the space.
>>>
>>> For example, in the hypothetical of Sudo putting a server rack into what
>>> is presently another group's dedicated space (Backspace), that particular
>>> conversation should be had with that *group* from the get-go. For sure,
>>> hash out pros & cons on sudo-discuss, walk the building with other sudoers
>>> - yes! - but that discussion should not take place *only* on
>>> sudo-discuss (or sudo-mesh), or *only* with other sudoers (me and
>>> Andrew). Also, the Backspace area presently needs a lot of work -
>>> apparently, many people can only envision as a place for garbage, or to get
>>> to utility panels.
>>>
>>> Just because the Backspace area has not been fixed up yet, does not mean
>>> it won't soon be. Backspace area is at a real disadvantage here compared to
>>> nearly every other group, and I feel we all must be understanding of this,
>>> as Backspace clearly needs more work (and *time* to do that) than pretty
>>> much anywhere else in the building. I mean, Backspace has far more intense
>>> permitting and structural issues to address - we're getting architectural
>>> drawings (I had the architect over yesterday partly for this reason), and
>>> planning it out thoughtfully - this is not going to happen in one week or
>>> even one month. Also, Backspacers are a much smaller, newer group than
>>> Sudo, in which almost everyone has day jobs and simply can't be there alla
>>> the time - they are not on sudo-discuss, nor necessarily should they be, at
>>> least any more than all of sudo should be on backspace's list.
>>>
>>> For those that don't know - Backspace Wellness Collective is a
>>> regularly-meeting group presently comprised of four healers / bodyworkers,
>>> in addition to Andrew and myself: Samantha, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>> So, the notion of building Sudo stuff into Backspace needs to be discussed
>>> extensively with Backspace as a group. I see this model as applying to any
>>> group wanting to build out in another group's space.
>>>
>>> As you can imagine Backspace is having their own internal discussions
>>> about how articulate their model, including how best to build out,
>>> refinish, and make use of that physical area. Consider that if you blow
>>> away part of Backspace's area or an entire room for a different use, you
>>> are also potentially actually talking about removing an individual from
>>> Backspace, who would have used that room for their practice. I think it
>>> might be best to think about the pro's of putting servers into backspace in
>>> that way: Do you really feel that strongly about having servers there that
>>> you are willing to do ask that of another group? So you see what I mean
>>> here.
>>>
>>> Anyhow, to a less intensive extent that conversation should also be had
>>> with the Omni Oakland Commons as a whole (in the omnilogistics list),
>>> especially if you see the servers as serving the entire building, not just
>>> sudo (which would need to be explained to everyone else too - easily enough
>>> done, but the common use of these servers should be clarified.)
>>>
>>> Regarding server racks specifically and knowing sudo frankly I am
>>> somewhat doubtful that racks would be simply be left alone in a
>>> set-and-forget mode as much as has been inferred. Rather, I imagine sudo
>>> will actually need not-infrequent physical access.. to hack on things,
>>> install and upgrade new donated equipment, etc. Therefore they should be in
>>> a space where physical access is not an issue, and probably for permitting
>>> issues alone not infringe on the area for electrical panels. The electrical
>>> panel area should be closeted off no matter what and really never entered
>>> unless a breaker is flipped which, with 200A (or is it 240A?) of power and
>>> solid distribution throughout the building, and thoughtful planning re:
>>> circuit load, I see as being rare. Yes, a number of the circuits are
>>> powered off presently throughout the space - we will address that, and then
>>> the electrical closet should be rarely entered, if only for safety's sake
>>> if nothing else. My 2c.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Luis Murillo <luis.murillo.plos at gmail.com
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey guys sorry I've been MIA today, been running some errands/TCB will
>>>> swing by sudo later tonight and monday night :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Somebody <somebody at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Excuse me for resending this email treat, but the Sudo-mesh list was not
>>>>> linked from the first email that I sent out.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
>>>>> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 17:12:03 -0700
>>>>> From: hol at gaskill.com
>>>>> To: David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>>>> CC: sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> the compressor for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>> i think doing experiments on heat recovery and regenerative hx are good
>>>>> for longterm - using a compressor and refrigerant to cool hot things may
>>>>> be less green than using fans and just circulating fresh cool air and
>>>>> letting convection do the work. if there's no objection, we could set
>>>>> up temp racks where daniel and others propose until we can run coax to a
>>>>> more optimal area. i finally have some time this week so i'll be around
>>>>> to assist with low-level tasks in support of setting up basic
>>>>> infrastructure
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2014-07-06 10:00, David Keenan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> hey guys,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I applaud the effort to find a good, secure server space! I definitely
>>>>>> wanna help.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The main issue with using this particular room is, as you can see by
>>>>>> looking at the floorplan, the Backspace wellness collective is
>>>>>> already paying rent on that particular area (NW groundfloor
>>>>>> corner) and will be making their own changes to that space. Backspace
>>>>>> is myself, Andrew of course, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The wellness collective needs quiet - thats partly an attraction for
>>>>>> that corner of the building - and, a cabinet full of fans plus almost
>>>>>> certainly AC for the cabinet, is loud. Also, it takes up Backspace,
>>>>>> and to be honest, i have hard time inamagining Sudo wont need to get
>>>>>> into it alla the time, so it seems nonideal to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In general I would think, before using other essentially non-shared
>>>>>> areas of the building for Sudo's servers, we would have to
>>>>>> actually rule out why building the room in other locations, like Sudo
>>>>>> room, wouldnt work, and why we think actually that particular location
>>>>>> in someone else's area is really the only place it could work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regardless of Bsckspace, having racked & stacked for going on 20 years
>>>>>> that would not be my first location in the entire building for a lot
>>>>>> of reasons.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, a server cabinet / closet does not need to be near the main
>>>>>> electrical panel. Nor does it does not need to be near the street.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We could find a room in the basement. There is excellent ventilation
>>>>>> to the basement, that just needs a small fix. Also the furnaces are in
>>>>>> the basement, and heat from the servers could tap into that venting to
>>>>>> actually help heat the building, which could save on energy. Also,
>>>>>> there is a plan to build a walk-in in the basement - the compressor
>>>>>> for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In other words, in my view, we should attempt a green solution that
>>>>>> ties the serbers into the infrastructure for the building.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :)
>>>>>> d
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday, July 5, 2014, Somebody <somebody at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> === SERVER ROOM UPDATES ===
>>>>>> 2014/07/05:
>>>>>> Today Luis, Matt, and I did the walk in the building, and so far the
>>>>>> only place that seems the
>>>>>> most appropriate to have the server room is the room by the bar.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This area is the most ideal in the whole building because the air
>>>>>> flow,
>>>>>> temperature, electricity proximity, and also because it is where the
>>>>>> Internet access enters the building.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since this area is not is not part of the SudoRoom space, we will have
>>>>>> to talk about it with the rest of the Sudo-Mesh group and the group
>>>>>> approves it, then we would have to present the idea at our
>>>>>> Omni Collective meeting for approval.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If approved by the Omni Collective, we would need to build:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * A 2" or so high floor (two by fours and plywood would do, I believe.
>>>>>> * A 55" x 65" cage with chicken wire walls and a door.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If this place is NOT approved by the OOC then perhaps we should
>>>>>> consider
>>>>>> building the Server Room in the SudoRoom Space. High temperature and
>>>>>> noise levels are the main issues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If others have ideas/comments/or want to be part of this process
>>>>>> please
>>>>>> jump in. You may contact Matt, Luis, or myself (Daniel).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Network/Reboot
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Network/Reboot
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:
>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>> mesh at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>> mesh at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 16:01:13 -0700
> From: Matthew Senate <mattsenate at gmail.com>
> To: David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
> Cc: "sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org"
> <sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] [Mesh] Fwd: Re: Server Room Status
> Message-ID:
> <CA+_XFN+6imJSN33532JNsygkmhWV+7AQKen2FzSr2kbRAVX7Lg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Don't micro-manage creativity.
> Be pleased that folks want to solve communal (omni-wide) problems right
> now; this will not always be true.
> Assume good faith.
>
> This being said, arguments exist on all sides. To me the questions are:
>
> What are the problems? Need a place to put network utilities very soon.
> What are the constraints? Only certain kinds of places work for network
> devices, without intractable costs.
> What are the opportunities? Two branches (a) places that are convenient and
> already appropriate for setting up network devices (fast, easy) and (b)
> places that allow for integrating network devices into the heating/cooling
> systems (potential energy/cost-savings, require coordination, approval, and
> implementation with potential extra costs).
> What are the priorities? To me: speed, simplicity.
>
> In my opinion, we should put devices in the simplest place as soon as
> possible and move on to the many other, more complex problems.
>
> // Matt
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:08 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> (Also I am thinking, low-power solar fans for mellow airflow into the
>> basement venting, like the kind had on boats, would be cool.)
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:06 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Also, re: ventilation in the basement - we have to recconnect the blower
>>> from the room (the 1'x3' venting) on the east side asap. On the west side,
>>> there is active cooling on the west side already (2x fans, plus windows
>>> above the sidewalk. There is also a large lightwell above the barr-room
>>> bathroom that could probably be easily gotten to. So, re: cool air (without
>>> a/c) to the servers if they are in the basement, we could pull cool air
>>> from the street or roof to the cold side of the rack, and vent heat from
>>> the hot side/top to the existing exhaust venting the furnaces use, or vent
>>> heat directlty to the basement in the winter, or vent perhaps to that
>>> lightwell... we can use thermostats in the room to trigger A/C from the
>>> compressor to the rack only if needed, and use ambient the rest of the time.
>>>
>>> In general, the ventilation setup in the basement - what needs to exhaust
>>> separately, what venting is shared and whence does it come/go - needs to be
>>> coordinated with the FNB, La Commune, Black Hole, and OOC. It's a
>>> logistical issue that Sudoers I think would be really good at help sorting
>>> out, and I would really love it if we could.
>>>
>>> As others have stated, we need a working group just for the basement and
>>> space there to hash out this stuff - plumbing is another equally pressing
>>> aspect. It's enough work and discussion I think it may be a good idea to
>>> set up its own email list perhaps on riseup or google, but I am open to
>>> suggestions about how best to comprise this.
>>>
>>> Love
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Again I am *super* psyched that we are tackling where to rack servers
>>>> and very grateful to all who are putting energy and effort into this.
>>>>
>>>> Whether it be for servers or any other ideas about how to use others'
>>>> space and shared space, I feel the only real missing piece in the
>>>> discussion here, and actually to various degrees within pretty much
>>>> *every* member collective actually, is not keeping in mind any other
>>>> group's plans or ideas for a given space in the building - especially for
>>>> their very own space which they have already been promised are technically
>>>> in possession of.
>>>>
>>>> *For sure*, by all means, lets brainstorm about every possible place
>>>> things like servers could go. If we are imagining the rack should *not*
>>>> go into sudo/ccl's room (why not?), but rather elsewhere in the building, I
>>>> think that's a conversation that should include others in the building too,
>>>> not just sudoers, because it affects others' planning and use of space.
>>>>
>>>> The same I feel is true for anyone else's plans to do any build-out, and
>>>> all buildout really should be discussed within the OOC as a whole. This
>>>> doesn't have to be a nightmare of endless meetings - its simply a way to
>>>> try to act in a coordinated and thoughtful manner in concert with other
>>>> groups in the space.
>>>>
>>>> For example, in the hypothetical of Sudo putting a server rack into what
>>>> is presently another group's dedicated space (Backspace), that particular
>>>> conversation should be had with that *group* from the get-go. For sure,
>>>> hash out pros & cons on sudo-discuss, walk the building with other sudoers
>>>> - yes! - but that discussion should not take place *only* on
>>>> sudo-discuss (or sudo-mesh), or *only* with other sudoers (me and
>>>> Andrew). Also, the Backspace area presently needs a lot of work -
>>>> apparently, many people can only envision as a place for garbage, or to get
>>>> to utility panels.
>>>>
>>>> Just because the Backspace area has not been fixed up yet, does not mean
>>>> it won't soon be. Backspace area is at a real disadvantage here compared to
>>>> nearly every other group, and I feel we all must be understanding of this,
>>>> as Backspace clearly needs more work (and *time* to do that) than
>>>> pretty much anywhere else in the building. I mean, Backspace has far more
>>>> intense permitting and structural issues to address - we're getting
>>>> architectural drawings (I had the architect over yesterday partly for this
>>>> reason), and planning it out thoughtfully - this is not going to happen in
>>>> one week or even one month. Also, Backspacers are a much smaller, newer
>>>> group than Sudo, in which almost everyone has day jobs and simply can't be
>>>> there alla the time - they are not on sudo-discuss, nor necessarily should
>>>> they be, at least any more than all of sudo should be on backspace's list.
>>>>
>>>> For those that don't know - Backspace Wellness Collective is a
>>>> regularly-meeting group presently comprised of four healers / bodyworkers,
>>>> in addition to Andrew and myself: Samantha, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>>> So, the notion of building Sudo stuff into Backspace needs to be discussed
>>>> extensively with Backspace as a group. I see this model as applying to any
>>>> group wanting to build out in another group's space.
>>>>
>>>> As you can imagine Backspace is having their own internal discussions
>>>> about how articulate their model, including how best to build out,
>>>> refinish, and make use of that physical area. Consider that if you blow
>>>> away part of Backspace's area or an entire room for a different use, you
>>>> are also potentially actually talking about removing an individual from
>>>> Backspace, who would have used that room for their practice. I think it
>>>> might be best to think about the pro's of putting servers into backspace in
>>>> that way: Do you really feel that strongly about having servers there that
>>>> you are willing to do ask that of another group? So you see what I mean
>>>> here.
>>>>
>>>> Anyhow, to a less intensive extent that conversation should also be had
>>>> with the Omni Oakland Commons as a whole (in the omnilogistics list),
>>>> especially if you see the servers as serving the entire building, not just
>>>> sudo (which would need to be explained to everyone else too - easily enough
>>>> done, but the common use of these servers should be clarified.)
>>>>
>>>> Regarding server racks specifically and knowing sudo frankly I am
>>>> somewhat doubtful that racks would be simply be left alone in a
>>>> set-and-forget mode as much as has been inferred. Rather, I imagine sudo
>>>> will actually need not-infrequent physical access.. to hack on things,
>>>> install and upgrade new donated equipment, etc. Therefore they should be in
>>>> a space where physical access is not an issue, and probably for permitting
>>>> issues alone not infringe on the area for electrical panels. The electrical
>>>> panel area should be closeted off no matter what and really never entered
>>>> unless a breaker is flipped which, with 200A (or is it 240A?) of power and
>>>> solid distribution throughout the building, and thoughtful planning re:
>>>> circuit load, I see as being rare. Yes, a number of the circuits are
>>>> powered off presently throughout the space - we will address that, and then
>>>> the electrical closet should be rarely entered, if only for safety's sake
>>>> if nothing else. My 2c.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Luis Murillo <
>>>> luis.murillo.plos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hey guys sorry I've been MIA today, been running some errands/TCB will
>>>>> swing by sudo later tonight and monday night :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Somebody <somebody at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Excuse me for resending this email treat, but the Sudo-mesh list was
>>>>>> not
>>>>>> linked from the first email that I sent out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 17:12:03 -0700
>>>>>> From: hol at gaskill.com
>>>>>> To: David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> CC: sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the compressor for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>>> i think doing experiments on heat recovery and regenerative hx are good
>>>>>> for longterm - using a compressor and refrigerant to cool hot things
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> be less green than using fans and just circulating fresh cool air and
>>>>>> letting convection do the work. if there's no objection, we could set
>>>>>> up temp racks where daniel and others propose until we can run coax to
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> more optimal area. i finally have some time this week so i'll be
>>>>>> around
>>>>>> to assist with low-level tasks in support of setting up basic
>>>>>> infrastructure
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2014-07-06 10:00, David Keenan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> hey guys,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I applaud the effort to find a good, secure server space! I
>>>>>> definitely
>>>>>>> wanna help.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The main issue with using this particular room is, as you can see by
>>>>>>> looking at the floorplan, the Backspace wellness collective is
>>>>>>> already paying rent on that particular area (NW groundfloor
>>>>>>> corner) and will be making their own changes to that space. Backspace
>>>>>>> is myself, Andrew of course, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The wellness collective needs quiet - thats partly an attraction for
>>>>>>> that corner of the building - and, a cabinet full of fans plus almost
>>>>>>> certainly AC for the cabinet, is loud. Also, it takes up Backspace,
>>>>>>> and to be honest, i have hard time inamagining Sudo wont need to get
>>>>>>> into it alla the time, so it seems nonideal to me.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In general I would think, before using other essentially non-shared
>>>>>>> areas of the building for Sudo's servers, we would have to
>>>>>>> actually rule out why building the room in other locations, like Sudo
>>>>>>> room, wouldnt work, and why we think actually that particular
>>>>>> location
>>>>>>> in someone else's area is really the only place it could work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regardless of Bsckspace, having racked & stacked for going on 20
>>>>>> years
>>>>>>> that would not be my first location in the entire building for a lot
>>>>>>> of reasons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, a server cabinet / closet does not need to be near the main
>>>>>>> electrical panel. Nor does it does not need to be near the street.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We could find a room in the basement. There is excellent ventilation
>>>>>>> to the basement, that just needs a small fix. Also the furnaces are
>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> the basement, and heat from the servers could tap into that venting
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> actually help heat the building, which could save on energy. Also,
>>>>>>> there is a plan to build a walk-in in the basement - the compressor
>>>>>>> for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In other words, in my view, we should attempt a green solution that
>>>>>>> ties the serbers into the infrastructure for the building.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 5, 2014, Somebody <somebody at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> === SERVER ROOM UPDATES ===
>>>>>>> 2014/07/05:
>>>>>>> Today Luis, Matt, and I did the walk in the building, and so far the
>>>>>>> only place that seems the
>>>>>>> most appropriate to have the server room is the room by the bar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This area is the most ideal in the whole building because the air
>>>>>>> flow,
>>>>>>> temperature, electricity proximity, and also because it is where the
>>>>>>> Internet access enters the building.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Since this area is not is not part of the SudoRoom space, we will
>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to talk about it with the rest of the Sudo-Mesh group and the group
>>>>>>> approves it, then we would have to present the idea at our
>>>>>>> Omni Collective meeting for approval.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If approved by the Omni Collective, we would need to build:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * A 2" or so high floor (two by fours and plywood would do, I
>>>>>> believe.
>>>>>>> * A 55" x 65" cage with chicken wire walls and a door.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If this place is NOT approved by the OOC then perhaps we should
>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>> building the Server Room in the SudoRoom Space. High temperature and
>>>>>>> noise levels are the main issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If others have ideas/comments/or want to be part of this process
>>>>>>> please
>>>>>>> jump in. You may contact Matt, Luis, or myself (Daniel).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Network/Reboot
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Network/Reboot
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:
>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>> mesh at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>> mesh at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
>>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 16:29:50 -0700
> From: David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
> To: "sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org"
> <sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
> Message-ID:
> <CABhLtjzXCHoMth+nFeUR7_czrpig_Go-Xy=vsS4T4qWkVj_LSA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I agree with you Matt 1000% on assuming good faith.
>
> I am super pleased that people take it upon themselves to tend to all that
> needs doing - it was in the first line of my first two initial emails on
> this project.
>
> Putting servers into backspace right now may seems like the easiest / OSPF
> as a temporary, provisional measure for a couple of days.. I wonder, will
> it be just as easy to remove them in a few days when we begin laying
> up drywall in there and start refinishing that room, filling it with
> debris?
>
> After the room is finished, if the servers are too loud for sudo/ccl 's
> 3.2k sq ft room - how loud do you think it will sound in a room a
> fraction the size with practitioners in it trying to treat folks with
> ailments, or get a relaxing tuia-na massage, or meditate, or quietly work
> / read etc? A absolutely central idea of backspace is being a quiet space,
> while 41U of servers sounds not unlike a jet engine in my experience.
>
> Y'all, I really do have sudo's best interests at heart, and I would urge
> everyone reading this that expressing concerns like these is not any
> attempt to stomp on our collective creative do-o-cratic urges, but simply
> an good-hearted attempt, however adumbrated or limited it may be, to be
> practical and thoughtful by incorporating germane variables into a viable
> server room plan that might lie outside your current matrix.
>
> On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <mattsenate at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Don't micro-manage creativity.
>> Be pleased that folks want to solve communal (omni-wide) problems right
>> now; this will not always be true.
>> Assume good faith.
>>
>> This being said, arguments exist on all sides. To me the questions are:
>>
>> What are the problems? Need a place to put network utilities very soon.
>> What are the constraints? Only certain kinds of places work for network
>> devices, without intractable costs.
>> What are the opportunities? Two branches (a) places that are convenient
>> and already appropriate for setting up network devices (fast, easy) and (b)
>> places that allow for integrating network devices into the heating/cooling
>> systems (potential energy/cost-savings, require coordination, approval, and
>> implementation with potential extra costs).
>> What are the priorities? To me: speed, simplicity.
>>
>> In my opinion, we should put devices in the simplest place as soon as
>> possible and move on to the many other, more complex problems.
>>
>> // Matt
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:08 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com
>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dkeenan44 at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>
>>> (Also I am thinking, low-power solar fans for mellow airflow into the
>>> basement venting, like the kind had on boats, would be cool.)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:06 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dkeenan44 at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also, re: ventilation in the basement - we have to recconnect the blower
>>>> from the room (the 1'x3' venting) on the east side asap. On the west side,
>>>> there is active cooling on the west side already (2x fans, plus windows
>>>> above the sidewalk. There is also a large lightwell above the barr-room
>>>> bathroom that could probably be easily gotten to. So, re: cool air (without
>>>> a/c) to the servers if they are in the basement, we could pull cool air
>>>> from the street or roof to the cold side of the rack, and vent heat from
>>>> the hot side/top to the existing exhaust venting the furnaces use, or vent
>>>> heat directlty to the basement in the winter, or vent perhaps to that
>>>> lightwell... we can use thermostats in the room to trigger A/C from the
>>>> compressor to the rack only if needed, and use ambient the rest of the time.
>>>>
>>>> In general, the ventilation setup in the basement - what needs to
>>>> exhaust separately, what venting is shared and whence does it come/go -
>>>> needs to be coordinated with the FNB, La Commune, Black Hole, and OOC. It's
>>>> a logistical issue that Sudoers I think would be really good at help
>>>> sorting out, and I would really love it if we could.
>>>>
>>>> As others have stated, we need a working group just for the basement and
>>>> space there to hash out this stuff - plumbing is another equally pressing
>>>> aspect. It's enough work and discussion I think it may be a good idea to
>>>> set up its own email list perhaps on riseup or google, but I am open to
>>>> suggestions about how best to comprise this.
>>>>
>>>> Love
>>>> David
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com
>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dkeenan44 at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Again I am *super* psyched that we are tackling where to rack servers
>>>>> and very grateful to all who are putting energy and effort into this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether it be for servers or any other ideas about how to use others'
>>>>> space and shared space, I feel the only real missing piece in the
>>>>> discussion here, and actually to various degrees within pretty much
>>>>> *every* member collective actually, is not keeping in mind any other
>>>>> group's plans or ideas for a given space in the building - especially for
>>>>> their very own space which they have already been promised are technically
>>>>> in possession of.
>>>>>
>>>>> *For sure*, by all means, lets brainstorm about every possible place
>>>>> things like servers could go. If we are imagining the rack should *not*
>>>>> go into sudo/ccl's room (why not?), but rather elsewhere in the building, I
>>>>> think that's a conversation that should include others in the building too,
>>>>> not just sudoers, because it affects others' planning and use of space.
>>>>>
>>>>> The same I feel is true for anyone else's plans to do any build-out,
>>>>> and all buildout really should be discussed within the OOC as a whole. This
>>>>> doesn't have to be a nightmare of endless meetings - its simply a way to
>>>>> try to act in a coordinated and thoughtful manner in concert with other
>>>>> groups in the space.
>>>>>
>>>>> For example, in the hypothetical of Sudo putting a server rack into
>>>>> what is presently another group's dedicated space (Backspace), that
>>>>> particular conversation should be had with that *group* from the
>>>>> get-go. For sure, hash out pros & cons on sudo-discuss, walk the building
>>>>> with other sudoers - yes! - but that discussion should not take place
>>>>> *only* on sudo-discuss (or sudo-mesh), or *only* with other sudoers
>>>>> (me and Andrew). Also, the Backspace area presently needs a lot of work -
>>>>> apparently, many people can only envision as a place for garbage, or to get
>>>>> to utility panels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just because the Backspace area has not been fixed up yet, does not
>>>>> mean it won't soon be. Backspace area is at a real disadvantage here
>>>>> compared to nearly every other group, and I feel we all must be
>>>>> understanding of this, as Backspace clearly needs more work (and *time* to
>>>>> do that) than pretty much anywhere else in the building. I mean, Backspace
>>>>> has far more intense permitting and structural issues to address - we're
>>>>> getting architectural drawings (I had the architect over yesterday partly
>>>>> for this reason), and planning it out thoughtfully - this is not going to
>>>>> happen in one week or even one month. Also, Backspacers are a much smaller,
>>>>> newer group than Sudo, in which almost everyone has day jobs and simply
>>>>> can't be there alla the time - they are not on sudo-discuss, nor
>>>>> necessarily should they be, at least any more than all of sudo should be on
>>>>> backspace's list.
>>>>>
>>>>> For those that don't know - Backspace Wellness Collective is a
>>>>> regularly-meeting group presently comprised of four healers / bodyworkers,
>>>>> in addition to Andrew and myself: Samantha, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>>>> So, the notion of building Sudo stuff into Backspace needs to be discussed
>>>>> extensively with Backspace as a group. I see this model as applying to any
>>>>> group wanting to build out in another group's space.
>>>>>
>>>>> As you can imagine Backspace is having their own internal discussions
>>>>> about how articulate their model, including how best to build out,
>>>>> refinish, and make use of that physical area. Consider that if you blow
>>>>> away part of Backspace's area or an entire room for a different use, you
>>>>> are also potentially actually talking about removing an individual from
>>>>> Backspace, who would have used that room for their practice. I think it
>>>>> might be best to think about the pro's of putting servers into backspace in
>>>>> that way: Do you really feel that strongly about having servers there that
>>>>> you are willing to do ask that of another group? So you see what I mean
>>>>> here.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyhow, to a less intensive extent that conversation should also be had
>>>>> with the Omni Oakland Commons as a whole (in the omnilogistics list),
>>>>> especially if you see the servers as serving the entire building, not just
>>>>> sudo (which would need to be explained to everyone else too - easily enough
>>>>> done, but the common use of these servers should be clarified.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Regarding server racks specifically and knowing sudo frankly I am
>>>>> somewhat doubtful that racks would be simply be left alone in a
>>>>> set-and-forget mode as much as has been inferred. Rather, I imagine sudo
>>>>> will actually need not-infrequent physical access.. to hack on things,
>>>>> install and upgrade new donated equipment, etc. Therefore they should be in
>>>>> a space where physical access is not an issue, and probably for permitting
>>>>> issues alone not infringe on the area for electrical panels. The electrical
>>>>> panel area should be closeted off no matter what and really never entered
>>>>> unless a breaker is flipped which, with 200A (or is it 240A?) of power and
>>>>> solid distribution throughout the building, and thoughtful planning re:
>>>>> circuit load, I see as being rare. Yes, a number of the circuits are
>>>>> powered off presently throughout the space - we will address that, and then
>>>>> the electrical closet should be rarely entered, if only for safety's sake
>>>>> if nothing else. My 2c.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Luis Murillo <
>>>>> luis.murillo.plos at gmail.com
>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','luis.murillo.plos at gmail.com');>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hey guys sorry I've been MIA today, been running some errands/TCB will
>>>>>> swing by sudo later tonight and monday night :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Somebody <somebody at riseup.net
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','somebody at riseup.net');>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Excuse me for resending this email treat, but the Sudo-mesh list was
>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>> linked from the first email that I sent out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 17:12:03 -0700
>>>>>>> From: hol at gaskill.com
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','hol at gaskill.com');>
>>>>>>> To: David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dkeenan44 at gmail.com');>>
>>>>>>> CC: sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org');>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the compressor for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>>>> i think doing experiments on heat recovery and regenerative hx are
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> for longterm - using a compressor and refrigerant to cool hot things
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> be less green than using fans and just circulating fresh cool air and
>>>>>>> letting convection do the work. if there's no objection, we could set
>>>>>>> up temp racks where daniel and others propose until we can run coax
>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>> more optimal area. i finally have some time this week so i'll be
>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>> to assist with low-level tasks in support of setting up basic
>>>>>>> infrastructure
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2014-07-06 10:00, David Keenan wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> hey guys,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I applaud the effort to find a good, secure server space! I
>>>>>>> definitely
>>>>>>>> wanna help.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The main issue with using this particular room is, as you can see by
>>>>>>>> looking at the floorplan, the Backspace wellness collective is
>>>>>>>> already paying rent on that particular area (NW groundfloor
>>>>>>>> corner) and will be making their own changes to that space.
>>>>>>> Backspace
>>>>>>>> is myself, Andrew of course, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The wellness collective needs quiet - thats partly an attraction for
>>>>>>>> that corner of the building - and, a cabinet full of fans plus
>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>>> certainly AC for the cabinet, is loud. Also, it takes up Backspace,
>>>>>>>> and to be honest, i have hard time inamagining Sudo wont need to get
>>>>>>>> into it alla the time, so it seems nonideal to me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In general I would think, before using other essentially non-shared
>>>>>>>> areas of the building for Sudo's servers, we would have to
>>>>>>>> actually rule out why building the room in other locations, like
>>>>>>> Sudo
>>>>>>>> room, wouldnt work, and why we think actually that particular
>>>>>>> location
>>>>>>>> in someone else's area is really the only place it could work.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regardless of Bsckspace, having racked & stacked for going on 20
>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>> that would not be my first location in the entire building for a lot
>>>>>>>> of reasons.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, a server cabinet / closet does not need to be near the main
>>>>>>>> electrical panel. Nor does it does not need to be near the street.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We could find a room in the basement. There is excellent ventilation
>>>>>>>> to the basement, that just needs a small fix. Also the furnaces are
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> the basement, and heat from the servers could tap into that venting
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> actually help heat the building, which could save on energy. Also,
>>>>>>>> there is a plan to build a walk-in in the basement - the compressor
>>>>>>>> for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In other words, in my view, we should attempt a green solution that
>>>>>>>> ties the serbers into the infrastructure for the building.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 5, 2014, Somebody <somebody at riseup.net
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','somebody at riseup.net');>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> === SERVER ROOM UPDATES ===
>>>>>>>> 2014/07/05:
>>>>>>>> Today Luis, Matt, and I did the walk in the building, and so far the
>>>>>>>> only place that seems the
>>>>>>>> most appropriate to have the server room is the room by the bar.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This area is the most ideal in the whole building because the air
>>>>>>>> flow,
>>>>>>>> temperature, electricity proximity, and also because it is where the
>>>>>>>> Internet access enters the building.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since this area is not is not part of the SudoRoom space, we will
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> to talk about it with the rest of the Sudo-Mesh group and the group
>>>>>>>> approves it, then we would have to present the idea at our
>>>>>>>> Omni Collective meeting for approval.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If approved by the Omni Collective, we would need to build:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> * A 2" or so high floor (two by fours and plywood would do, I
>>>>>>> believe.
>>>>>>>> * A 55" x 65" cage with chicken wire walls and a door.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If this place is NOT approved by the OOC then perhaps we should
>>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>>> building the Server Room in the SudoRoom Space. High temperature and
>>>>>>>> noise levels are the main issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If others have ideas/comments/or want to be part of this process
>>>>>>>> please
>>>>>>>> jump in. You may contact Matt, Luis, or myself (Daniel).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Network/Reboot
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Network/Reboot
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org');>
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org');>
>>>>>>> <mailto:sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org');>>
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>>> mesh at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mesh at lists.sudoroom.org');>
>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>> mesh at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mesh at lists.sudoroom.org');>
>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org');>
>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>
>>>
>>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2014 16:44:21 -0700
> From: Matthew Senate <mattsenate at gmail.com>
> To: David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
> Cc: "sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org"
> <sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
> Message-ID:
> <CA+_XFN+9+-HFdx2+XUDDjtFLmjDRszfBu-4RCSRC7+bUXWQ_EA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> So what you are saying is that You (on behalf of Backspace) have plans to
> add improvements to that room (at some point soon, requiring approval from
> the landlord and financed presumably by Backspace). Further, that You (on
> behalf of backspace with plans for using that room) do not want any network
> devices or other omni-wide usage in that space since you'll both be
> building in it and using it in some way for Backspace after you are done
> building in it.
>
> Is that correct?
>
> If so, what are the anticipated the build dates? And what stage are you at
> in terms of approvals? And what stage are you at in terms of financing?
>
> Thanks,
> Matt
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 4:29 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree with you Matt 1000% on assuming good faith.
>>
>> I am super pleased that people take it upon themselves to tend to all that
>> needs doing - it was in the first line of my first two initial emails on
>> this project.
>>
>> Putting servers into backspace right now may seems like the easiest / OSPF
>> as a temporary, provisional measure for a couple of days.. I wonder, will
>> it be just as easy to remove them in a few days when we begin laying
>> up drywall in there and start refinishing that room, filling it with
>> debris?
>>
>> After the room is finished, if the servers are too loud for sudo/ccl 's
>> 3.2k sq ft room - how loud do you think it will sound in a room a
>> fraction the size with practitioners in it trying to treat folks with
>> ailments, or get a relaxing tuia-na massage, or meditate, or quietly work
>> / read etc? A absolutely central idea of backspace is being a quiet space,
>> while 41U of servers sounds not unlike a jet engine in my experience.
>>
>> Y'all, I really do have sudo's best interests at heart, and I would urge
>> everyone reading this that expressing concerns like these is not any
>> attempt to stomp on our collective creative do-o-cratic urges, but simply
>> an good-hearted attempt, however adumbrated or limited it may be, to be
>> practical and thoughtful by incorporating germane variables into a viable
>> server room plan that might lie outside your current matrix.
>>
>> On Monday, July 7, 2014, Matthew Senate <mattsenate at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Don't micro-manage creativity.
>>> Be pleased that folks want to solve communal (omni-wide) problems right
>>> now; this will not always be true.
>>> Assume good faith.
>>>
>>> This being said, arguments exist on all sides. To me the questions are:
>>>
>>> What are the problems? Need a place to put network utilities very soon.
>>> What are the constraints? Only certain kinds of places work for network
>>> devices, without intractable costs.
>>> What are the opportunities? Two branches (a) places that are convenient
>>> and already appropriate for setting up network devices (fast, easy) and (b)
>>> places that allow for integrating network devices into the heating/cooling
>>> systems (potential energy/cost-savings, require coordination, approval, and
>>> implementation with potential extra costs).
>>> What are the priorities? To me: speed, simplicity.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, we should put devices in the simplest place as soon as
>>> possible and move on to the many other, more complex problems.
>>>
>>> // Matt
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:08 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (Also I am thinking, low-power solar fans for mellow airflow into the
>>>> basement venting, like the kind had on boats, would be cool.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 3:06 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Also, re: ventilation in the basement - we have to recconnect the
>>>>> blower from the room (the 1'x3' venting) on the east side asap. On the west
>>>>> side, there is active cooling on the west side already (2x fans, plus
>>>>> windows above the sidewalk. There is also a large lightwell above the
>>>>> barr-room bathroom that could probably be easily gotten to. So, re: cool
>>>>> air (without a/c) to the servers if they are in the basement, we could pull
>>>>> cool air from the street or roof to the cold side of the rack, and vent
>>>>> heat from the hot side/top to the existing exhaust venting the furnaces
>>>>> use, or vent heat directlty to the basement in the winter, or vent perhaps
>>>>> to that lightwell... we can use thermostats in the room to trigger A/C from
>>>>> the compressor to the rack only if needed, and use ambient the rest of the
>>>>> time.
>>>>>
>>>>> In general, the ventilation setup in the basement - what needs to
>>>>> exhaust separately, what venting is shared and whence does it come/go -
>>>>> needs to be coordinated with the FNB, La Commune, Black Hole, and OOC. It's
>>>>> a logistical issue that Sudoers I think would be really good at help
>>>>> sorting out, and I would really love it if we could.
>>>>>
>>>>> As others have stated, we need a working group just for the basement
>>>>> and space there to hash out this stuff - plumbing is another equally
>>>>> pressing aspect. It's enough work and discussion I think it may be a good
>>>>> idea to set up its own email list perhaps on riseup or google, but I am
>>>>> open to suggestions about how best to comprise this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Love
>>>>> David
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 2:30 PM, David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again I am *super* psyched that we are tackling where to rack servers
>>>>>> and very grateful to all who are putting energy and effort into this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether it be for servers or any other ideas about how to use others'
>>>>>> space and shared space, I feel the only real missing piece in the
>>>>>> discussion here, and actually to various degrees within pretty much
>>>>>> *every* member collective actually, is not keeping in mind any other
>>>>>> group's plans or ideas for a given space in the building - especially for
>>>>>> their very own space which they have already been promised are technically
>>>>>> in possession of.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *For sure*, by all means, lets brainstorm about every possible place
>>>>>> things like servers could go. If we are imagining the rack should
>>>>>> *not* go into sudo/ccl's room (why not?), but rather elsewhere in the
>>>>>> building, I think that's a conversation that should include others in the
>>>>>> building too, not just sudoers, because it affects others' planning and use
>>>>>> of space.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The same I feel is true for anyone else's plans to do any build-out,
>>>>>> and all buildout really should be discussed within the OOC as a whole. This
>>>>>> doesn't have to be a nightmare of endless meetings - its simply a way to
>>>>>> try to act in a coordinated and thoughtful manner in concert with other
>>>>>> groups in the space.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, in the hypothetical of Sudo putting a server rack into
>>>>>> what is presently another group's dedicated space (Backspace), that
>>>>>> particular conversation should be had with that *group* from the
>>>>>> get-go. For sure, hash out pros & cons on sudo-discuss, walk the building
>>>>>> with other sudoers - yes! - but that discussion should not take place
>>>>>> *only* on sudo-discuss (or sudo-mesh), or *only* with other sudoers
>>>>>> (me and Andrew). Also, the Backspace area presently needs a lot of work -
>>>>>> apparently, many people can only envision as a place for garbage, or to get
>>>>>> to utility panels.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just because the Backspace area has not been fixed up yet, does not
>>>>>> mean it won't soon be. Backspace area is at a real disadvantage here
>>>>>> compared to nearly every other group, and I feel we all must be
>>>>>> understanding of this, as Backspace clearly needs more work (and
>>>>>> *time* to do that) than pretty much anywhere else in the building. I
>>>>>> mean, Backspace has far more intense permitting and structural issues to
>>>>>> address - we're getting architectural drawings (I had the architect over
>>>>>> yesterday partly for this reason), and planning it out thoughtfully - this
>>>>>> is not going to happen in one week or even one month. Also, Backspacers are
>>>>>> a much smaller, newer group than Sudo, in which almost everyone has day
>>>>>> jobs and simply can't be there alla the time - they are not on
>>>>>> sudo-discuss, nor necessarily should they be, at least any more than all of
>>>>>> sudo should be on backspace's list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For those that don't know - Backspace Wellness Collective is a
>>>>>> regularly-meeting group presently comprised of four healers / bodyworkers,
>>>>>> in addition to Andrew and myself: Samantha, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>>>>> So, the notion of building Sudo stuff into Backspace needs to be discussed
>>>>>> extensively with Backspace as a group. I see this model as applying to any
>>>>>> group wanting to build out in another group's space.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As you can imagine Backspace is having their own internal discussions
>>>>>> about how articulate their model, including how best to build out,
>>>>>> refinish, and make use of that physical area. Consider that if you blow
>>>>>> away part of Backspace's area or an entire room for a different use, you
>>>>>> are also potentially actually talking about removing an individual from
>>>>>> Backspace, who would have used that room for their practice. I think it
>>>>>> might be best to think about the pro's of putting servers into backspace in
>>>>>> that way: Do you really feel that strongly about having servers there that
>>>>>> you are willing to do ask that of another group? So you see what I mean
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyhow, to a less intensive extent that conversation should also be
>>>>>> had with the Omni Oakland Commons as a whole (in the omnilogistics list),
>>>>>> especially if you see the servers as serving the entire building, not just
>>>>>> sudo (which would need to be explained to everyone else too - easily enough
>>>>>> done, but the common use of these servers should be clarified.)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regarding server racks specifically and knowing sudo frankly I am
>>>>>> somewhat doubtful that racks would be simply be left alone in a
>>>>>> set-and-forget mode as much as has been inferred. Rather, I imagine sudo
>>>>>> will actually need not-infrequent physical access.. to hack on things,
>>>>>> install and upgrade new donated equipment, etc. Therefore they should be in
>>>>>> a space where physical access is not an issue, and probably for permitting
>>>>>> issues alone not infringe on the area for electrical panels. The electrical
>>>>>> panel area should be closeted off no matter what and really never entered
>>>>>> unless a breaker is flipped which, with 200A (or is it 240A?) of power and
>>>>>> solid distribution throughout the building, and thoughtful planning re:
>>>>>> circuit load, I see as being rare. Yes, a number of the circuits are
>>>>>> powered off presently throughout the space - we will address that, and then
>>>>>> the electrical closet should be rarely entered, if only for safety's sake
>>>>>> if nothing else. My 2c.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> David
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Luis Murillo <
>>>>>> luis.murillo.plos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hey guys sorry I've been MIA today, been running some errands/TCB
>>>>>>> will swing by sudo later tonight and monday night :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 6:08 PM, Somebody <somebody at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Excuse me for resending this email treat, but the Sudo-mesh list was
>>>>>>>> not
>>>>>>>> linked from the first email that I sent out.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] Server Room Status
>>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2014 17:12:03 -0700
>>>>>>>> From: hol at gaskill.com
>>>>>>>> To: David Keenan <dkeenan44 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> CC: sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the compressor for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>>>>> i think doing experiments on heat recovery and regenerative hx are
>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>> for longterm - using a compressor and refrigerant to cool hot things
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>> be less green than using fans and just circulating fresh cool air and
>>>>>>>> letting convection do the work. if there's no objection, we could
>>>>>>>> set
>>>>>>>> up temp racks where daniel and others propose until we can run coax
>>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>>> more optimal area. i finally have some time this week so i'll be
>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>> to assist with low-level tasks in support of setting up basic
>>>>>>>> infrastructure
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-06 10:00, David Keenan wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> hey guys,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I applaud the effort to find a good, secure server space! I
>>>>>>>> definitely
>>>>>>>>> wanna help.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The main issue with using this particular room is, as you can see
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>>> looking at the floorplan, the Backspace wellness collective is
>>>>>>>>> already paying rent on that particular area (NW groundfloor
>>>>>>>>> corner) and will be making their own changes to that space.
>>>>>>>> Backspace
>>>>>>>>> is myself, Andrew of course, Margaretha, Athena, and Sarah.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The wellness collective needs quiet - thats partly an attraction
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> that corner of the building - and, a cabinet full of fans plus
>>>>>>>> almost
>>>>>>>>> certainly AC for the cabinet, is loud. Also, it takes up Backspace,
>>>>>>>>> and to be honest, i have hard time inamagining Sudo wont need to
>>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>>>> into it alla the time, so it seems nonideal to me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In general I would think, before using other essentially non-shared
>>>>>>>>> areas of the building for Sudo's servers, we would have to
>>>>>>>>> actually rule out why building the room in other locations, like
>>>>>>>> Sudo
>>>>>>>>> room, wouldnt work, and why we think actually that particular
>>>>>>>> location
>>>>>>>>> in someone else's area is really the only place it could work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regardless of Bsckspace, having racked & stacked for going on 20
>>>>>>>> years
>>>>>>>>> that would not be my first location in the entire building for a
>>>>>>>> lot
>>>>>>>>> of reasons.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Also, a server cabinet / closet does not need to be near the main
>>>>>>>>> electrical panel. Nor does it does not need to be near the street.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We could find a room in the basement. There is excellent
>>>>>>>> ventilation
>>>>>>>>> to the basement, that just needs a small fix. Also the furnaces
>>>>>>>> are in
>>>>>>>>> the basement, and heat from the servers could tap into that
>>>>>>>> venting to
>>>>>>>>> actually help heat the building, which could save on energy. Also,
>>>>>>>>> there is a plan to build a walk-in in the basement - the compressor
>>>>>>>>> for that could also provide cooling for the servers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In other words, in my view, we should attempt a green solution that
>>>>>>>>> ties the serbers into the infrastructure for the building.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>> d
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, July 5, 2014, Somebody <somebody at riseup.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> === SERVER ROOM UPDATES ===
>>>>>>>>> 2014/07/05:
>>>>>>>>> Today Luis, Matt, and I did the walk in the building, and so far
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> only place that seems the
>>>>>>>>> most appropriate to have the server room is the room by the bar.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This area is the most ideal in the whole building because the air
>>>>>>>>> flow,
>>>>>>>>> temperature, electricity proximity, and also because it is where
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Internet access enters the building.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since this area is not is not part of the SudoRoom space, we will
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> to talk about it with the rest of the Sudo-Mesh group and the group
>>>>>>>>> approves it, then we would have to present the idea at our
>>>>>>>>> Omni Collective meeting for approval.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If approved by the Omni Collective, we would need to build:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> * A 2" or so high floor (two by fours and plywood would do, I
>>>>>>>> believe.
>>>>>>>>> * A 55" x 65" cage with chicken wire walls and a door.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If this place is NOT approved by the OOC then perhaps we should
>>>>>>>>> consider
>>>>>>>>> building the Server Room in the SudoRoom Space. High temperature
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> noise levels are the main issues.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If others have ideas/comments/or want to be part of this process
>>>>>>>>> please
>>>>>>>>> jump in. You may contact Matt, Luis, or myself (Daniel).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/mediawiki/index.php?title=Network/Reboot
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This update and all other Network/Reboot project is found at:
>>>>>>>>> https://sudoroom.org/wiki/Network/Reboot
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thx!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org <mailto:
>>>>>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org>
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>>>> mesh at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> mesh mailing list
>>>>>>> mesh at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/mesh
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> sudo-discuss mailing list
>>>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>>>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> sudo-discuss at lists.sudoroom.org
>> https://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss
>>
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