[sudo-discuss] new occuption in SF: #gezigardens

[Anthony Di Franco]

Relevant:
http://www.verticalfarm.com/
Practical?


On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 11:28 PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <g2g-public01 at att.net>wrote:

>
> Re. Sonja and how the food gets there:
>
> What you said, is about how food gets from the entrance of the highrise to
> the apartments IN the highrise.  I was asking about how the food gets TO
> the highrises.  From the farms, to the market or store shelves, to the
> front door of the highrise (or whatever building the eater of the food
> lives in).
>
> Our food supply largely moves by truck, at cross country distances, and
> the difference in total truck miles to city, suburban, and rural
> destinations, is minimal.
>
> The primary added impact of suburbs and rural is of individuals driving to
> the store for resupply.  But the country mice and suburban mice both have
> more space in their nests to store food, than the city mice do, so they end
> up making fewer trips for food.  Country mice also tend to make food
> shopping a social activity with neighbors, so the trips that are made are
> often car-pooled.
>
> The way to get the cars out of the equation is by having a sufficient
> number of grocery stores within true walking distance to homes.  That means
> a couple of blocks at most, and real grocery stores, not "convenience"
> stores.  That's the development pattern in Manhattan.  New York City also
> has grocery delivery from most of those stores via pedal-powered cargo
> tricycles (these are even manufactured locally).
>
> One thing New York City doesn't have a whole lot of, is solar power,
> because a concrete jungle of highrises is also a truly crappy landscape for
> solar, and one couldn't generate enough power on those rooftops to even
> begin to provide for the actual usage in the apartments below.
>
> Discussions of sustainability and density all too easily succumb to one of
> the fatal flaws of the Western system of logic, "the fallacy of the
> excluded middle," where the choices are "bloated suburbs" on one hand, and
> "high-density highrises" on the other, with nothing in between, when in
> fact there are plenty of design options in between.
>
> -G.
>
>
> =====
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 13-06-11-Tue 6:55 PM, Sonja Trauss wrote:
>
> HOW DOES THE FOOD GET TO THE HIGHRISES!??!?! If only .... People could
> .... Hold groceries ... In ...  i don't know .... Their arms?!?!?! While
> standing in some kind of box .... That moves vertically. It's all just too
> hard to imagine. Surely there is no place on earth where people live in
> high rise apartment buildings.
>
> On Tuesday, June 11, 2013, Jehan Tremback wrote:
>
>> Are you telling us that high density urban housing is not more efficient
>> than sprawled out rural housing? Keep in mind that the vast majority of
>> people will not be subsistence farming. Also, as it relates to the Bay,
>> people are not going to be going back to the land because of SF rent. They
>> will move to Walnut Creek and sit in traffic for 2 hours a day, burning
>> gas.
>>
>>  -Jehan
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 6:01 PM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <g2g-public01 at att.net>wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hi Jehan;-)
>>
>> Ahh, the good ol' city mouse vs. country mouse arguement.  If we avoid
>> ad-homs this should be fun.
>>
>> First of all, a-priori generalizations are a-priori invalid.  Individual
>> ecological impact depends on lifestyle and employment, which vary widely
>> for both city and country.
>>
>> One of the largest impacts is commuting by automobile.  A country mouse
>> who's a telecommuter will have a zero commuting impact.  A city mouse whose
>> workplace isn't served by public transport will most likely end up driving
>> to work.  That comparison, in and of itself, falsifies your
>> generalization.
>>
>> Are you willing to argue publicly that all the city mice whose places of
>> employment aren't served by public transport, or who work late/overnight
>> shift and live or work in places where taking public transport is overtly
>> dangerous, should quit their jobs and seek employment elsewhere?
>>
>> Re. smaller apartments:  Can you operationalize your variables?  How
>> small?  Have you ever drawn a floorplan for one?  I've drawn plenty of
>> floorplans, down to 160 square feet, and I'll gladly show them to you any
>> time we have a chance to get together.
>>
>> Re. highrises:  Can you operationalize those variables too?  How does the
>> water get in, how does the sewage get out, and where does the money come
>> from to rip & replace the existing underground infrastructure for that
>> purpose?  And what do you do with a 10- or 20- story building full of
>> people, after the expected 7.0+ on the Hayward or San Andreas takes out the
>> power grid, water mains, and sewer mains, for a period of weeks to months?
>> (We'll assume the building remains standing, though that can't be taken for
>> granted.)
>>
>> Also about highrises, what do the children do at playtime?, where does
>> the food come from to feed all those people in the high-density highrises?,
>> and how does the food get there?  Who has ownership?  Who has control?  Who
>> makes the rules?
>>
>> Sweeping generalizations are easy; designing in detail and walking the
>> talk isn't.
>>
>> In the next round I'll describe what I do about water, electricity,
>> gasoline, and refuse.
>>
>> Cheers-
>>
>> -G.
>>
>>
>> =====
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13-06-11-Tue 9:34 AM, Jehan Tremback wrote:
>>
>> "Also there's a difference between a 160-square-foot house you build for
>> yourself on land you and your friends own, and a 160-square-foot cell in an
>> apartment complex that some developer builds as a means of extracting more
>> money from the tenants."
>>
>>  If you want to go out to the country and build a house on cheap land,
>> that's your choice. You will be damaging the environment with your
>> inevitable automobile use. If you want to live in the city, as many of us
>> do, you will have to deal with the fact that many other people do as well.
>>
>>  There are 2 ways to get more people onto a smaller piece of land-
>>
>>  1. Smaller apartments (I put tenants subdividing apartments in this
>> category as well)
>> 2. Replace 1950's style suburban houses with high rises.
>>
>>  These facts are completely independent of whatever system of government
>> and economy.
>>
>>  -Jehan
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 4:32 AM, GtwoG PublicOhOne <g2g-public01 at att.net>wrote:
>>
>>
>
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